LFB 24 Hour Shifts

[TrainHardFightEasy]

There are rumours that LFB are considering 24 hour shifts?

[LFB92]

I’ve heard something like 24 on 24 off 24 on 5 days off. I won’t believe it until I see something official from the brigade I don’t think they’ll change anything. I think it’s just one of them brigade rumours 

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Ah right so it won’t be 24 off 72 off like Bedfordshire.

[OscarTango]

They do use that in the states and seems popular, but if you're keeping a watch system and not going self rostering then 24/72 would probably work better for people traveling from outside the capital. 

Anythings got to be better than the current fudge compromise neither party actually wanted

[Jet]

Those rumours have been doing the rounds for years. Officially kiboshed by Dany Cotton on H&S grounds so any dialogue regarding 24s will have to wait for next commissioner to take over. Worth noting that 24hr shifts are explicitly prohibited under grey book, so to bring in 24s would require London FBU to have a local agreement outside grey book, something they're not historically known for doing. 

[Aspire]

LFB won’t even look at it unless FBU raise it, there is no corporate appetite.

[Messyshaw]

@Aspire, thank God for that!!!! (and long may that view continue)

This would be a massive mistake and a step back into Dickensian working practices. What next? Keeping a spare child in the pump bay locker for chimney jobs?

OK, 24 hour shifts give the LFB savings as theres only one change of shift per day, so limited overtime shouts and 50% out-duties

It gives FFs huge blocks of leave. Perfect if you are daft enough to drive 200 miles to work or have a building business on the side

But its bloody dangerous. Some stations are busy, very busy. Others will from time to time have mad nights. There's huge storms due tomorrow for example. Should firefighters be allowed to operate machinery, work at heights, drive on the bell and wear BA as they enter their 23rd hour on duty? Really??

Is it fair to consider those who are daft enough to drive 200 miles to work to stay awake, work and commute when they haven't slept for 35 hours? (including their commute).

And what health effects does being permanently knackered (as some will be) have on the body long term?

Wake up! Its 2019 folks and shorter hours and shifts should be sought after as the new way of working. More rest and less exposure to harm sounds like the sort of tomorrow I would like to see in the modern fire service

(How come I seem to be the only one so far who thinks 24hr shifts are crap. After all,  I am supposed to be the old grumbly site Luddite  )

[TrainHardFightEasy]

All valid points Messy & you recognised that the building trade would receive a large boost if LFB go to 24s. 👍

[Jet]

I'm still unsure about the arrangements regarding what happens when you have an exceptionally busy day shift and what to do if going into the night is going to be just as busy. Hoping someone from Bedfordshire will chime in on this one.

Regarding lack of sleep though, on my last night shift I was up at 7am as normal then reported for duty at 7pm. No 'rest' to be had due to an appliance standby lasting all night and back home at 12pm. So that was 29ish hours without sleep for this guy. It happens on the current 4/4 shift already so the no sleep issue isn't really much of an argument for me. It's only if you've been blowing on a job all day and then have to potentially do it again all night that bothers me somewhat.

[Noddy]

Messy I respect you and your views as you well know but I’d have worked 24 hour shifts if I could when I was on station.  I would work a night shift on 2,2,4, have my young son all day (no rest whatsoever) and then return to work for another night shift.  I frequently found myself up and awake for well over 30 hours as a result.  If working a 24 hour shift meant I was at home with my family more then I’d be in the queue to work it. 

And besides, I’d be a hypocrite if I was to oppose 24 hour shifts because I’ve also undertaken secondary employment for the majority of my time in the FRS.  Every week I’d be out doing landscaping before, between and after nights trying to earn a few extra pound notes.  

[Messyshaw]

@Noddy. I totally understand what you are saying mate and can see the advantages. I too worked 4 part time jobs and regular 90 hour weeks when I was younger. My wife stopped working to cope with our son who was experiencing some 'difficulties' and Nationwide still wanted the mortgage paying (at a whopping 17 to 18% interest rate). So I had to do a bit more or lose the house. That was exhausting

I would literally leave one job and go to the station for duty, then leave the station straight to the next job. Showers and sometimes laundry (hand wash) were done at the station as I was away from home for days

The huge difference is that working those daft 24+ hour 'shifts' was MY choice. Being so tired I struggle tying my shoe laces and would drift into the hard shoulder of the M6 driving a 40 tonne artic on a night trunk was MY stupid decision and not one imposed on me by my employer.

I just cannot reconcile the fact in 2019, an employer can force a shift pattern where complete exhaustion is likely regularly - with all the H&S risks that come with it. That a world away from making bloody stupid decisions as I did in my 20s and 30s where I though I was superman and sleep was for girls  

[Becile]

Messy, We had an agreement not too long ago that allowed back to back shifts (equating to a 24) not imposed by management after lobbying from members, which the Service agreed too.

I've got to say that most FFs took advantage of this, I can only speak for our service, but it went down well, entirely the FFs decision.

All the risk assessments for times where crews had had busy times (abity to stand down etc ) were in place , but with the recognition that we are not taking the call numbers others are taking, and generally the call rates are less at night, so still some stand down time, Call challenge can and has further seen all the afas  reduced.

Just a view from one service, one size, will not fit all.

[LFB92]

As much as I like the idea of 24s and having more time at home, I’m at one of the top 3 busiest stations in London and we’ve had some absolutely horrendous shifts. The thought of going out to AFAs all night after spending all day on a relief makes it that much less appealing.

[Becile]

Slightly off the topic (sorry Carl) Playing devils advocate  how many of those afas could be avoided by better management.or by getting those present to investigate before they call you. I'd get pretty peed off just going to afas all night !

[LFB92]

I think that is already the case in quite a few buildings with on site security and fire Marshall’s. it’s when they all go home for the evening that we end up getting mobilised to them. Maybe a solution would be 24hr security on some of the more frequent offenders but asking a company to employ more people to keep firefighters in bed might not go down to well! 

[Out In The Past]

I don’t think I could take much more time at home! I only live a mile from the station and our lass sees me in the house six days out of every eight already. 

[Becile]

16 hours ago, LFB92 said:

I think that is already the case in quite a few buildings with on site security and fire Marshall’s. it’s when they all go home for the evening that we end up getting mobilised to them. Maybe a solution would be 24hr security on some of the more frequent offenders but asking a company to employ more people to keep firefighters in bed might not go down to well! 

Fair play, but "frequent offenders" should be addressing why they go off, and rectifying - after a few bills for attendance Its probably cheaper to sort it or employ someone. (Taking into account the 1st hour of chargeable is usually upwards of £400) Even the much larger buildings or hospitals have an investigation period , or enginered sollution (double knock ) rather than immediate attendance.

Its not a ploy to keep ffs in bed, its reducing unwanted fire calls, which they have a duty as well.

Anyway..back on topic

[TrainHardFightEasy]

I think I read somewhere that over 50% of the LFB calls were AFAs. 

[Steve]

Its just under 50%...

2018; 

all calls 105,993

Fires 28,741

Special Services 33,458

False Alarms 52,861... but that is AFA + Good intent + Malicious.

 

 

[Lumie]

I think I’d be lucky to go out the doors maybe twice a tour if we stopped attending auto dial AFAs😂😂

[E.B]

Lot of fire brigades i Norway is 24h. Changes at 0800.

1. week:  Monday and Thursday

2. week: Saturday and Sunday (48h)

3. week: Wednesday

4. week: Tuesday and Friday

Runs is normal 1000 - 1500 a year for pump.

[Healdav]

I don't live in the UK. The French have a 24 hour system, but many of their firefighters live on-site, and walk across the yard to duty, where they have 12 hours on and 12 off (I'm not clear about the details).

Luxembourg had 24 hour shifts, but reverted to 12 on and 12 off because the men were falling asleep on the job.

[Hyperion]

I’ve been doing them for seven years at a station circa 2500 calls. Wouldn’t change back to 2,2,4. 

[Percy]

On 08/08/2019 at 18:49, Messyshaw said:

Wake up! Its 2019 folks and shorter hours and shifts should be sought after as the new way of working. More rest and less exposure to harm sounds like the sort of tomorrow I would like to see in the modern fire service

Careful Messy - this sounds like 8 hour shifts.

A requirement for 8 hour shifts would then result in huge establishment reductions 😲

[AlphaZulu]

I travel 70 miles to work 4 , each way, 4 days out of 8. I would take 24's all day long. 2 journeys every 8 days. A proper 24 hour break in-between shifts instead of just 10 hours if I'm lucky.