LFB 24 Hour Shifts

[Mike]

Currently a SubO on a two appliance station will most likely be taking home more than the StnO, purely due to standby movements. 

The Chief dropped in on a training session at HQ the other day and he said he would rather that there was an easier shift system / leave system, with leave being sorted out locally with self rostering. I'm just not sure that we will see a change like this soon. Especailly with all the money we have to save, they probably will concentrate more on the definitives of saving money rather than potenitally spending more?

 

[Jet]

@MessyshawI'm not sure how I could personally justify it as safe, but as many firefighters around the world work 24 and even 48 hour shifts, there must be a way and we would do well to find out from them directly. Hopefully some overseas colleagues will chime in on this one...

[Paul LFB]

Of course its safer. You work 24 and you are off 72 straight, You start after hopefully a full nights kip and have 3 straight day until you start again, compared to 2 days the life gets in the way work 15hr commute home go home again life has to be dealt with House ,kids day to day stuff commute back to work 15 hrs commute home. Realistically how many kip between night shifts  , even if you only got 3,4,5 hours you manage. You might grab 29 winks but you muddle trough the day and commute back to work. What's the average commute too so you might muddle through 50hrs on less than 10 hours sleep. That's why the 24 is a better shift. 

[Becile]

@Mike the leave at stations for us is no longer based on 7 and 14s you can take it when you want and it’s sorted at station, but only 1 can be off at a time, always requires a jo (watch strength of 5 brings the ridership to 4)

24 shifts do save the incidental ££ standby moves, as others have said, when we did it (local agreement )  and the reduction in travel costs etc for the FFs. It was actually the opportunity to do a back to back shift not a 24 shift.

Messy all I will say is we did for two years and we never had any evidence of incidents, maybe were just lucky in those years, most of the brigade were in favour and used it. Most want it back. Please take into account our call reduction policies have seen call numbers right down .

Of course there will always be periods of exceptional activity, that’s where flexibility needs to applied.

[CaptainFlack]

Just out of interest, are LFB stations geared up for 24 hour shifts?

Using the good old US of A as an example there's a reason they're called fire houses rather than stations. Everything is available - full on commercial style kitchen, dorms - some with separate rooms and proper gyms and rec rooms.  Amenities ready for the crews for working long shifts

I know every station working WT runs 24 hours a day but there is a difference between that and working there for 24 hours. 

[LFB92]

I’ve not seen a LFB station not suitable for 24s. If they are suitable for normal days/nights they are suitable for 24s I don’t really see the difference. 

Im happy to be corrected but I don’t know of any station without a gym, dorm, fully kitted out mess and rooms to hide away in.

[Luminoki]

On 03/11/2020 at 18:46, Hyperion said:

Been doing 24’s for over 8 years at a busy station. Nobody I know within the brigade would go back to 2-2-4. 

Further to messys “23 hours driving on the bell” do you change the riders around after a certain amount of hours on duty?

[LFB92]

Changing drivers is definitely a good idea. Would a short notice SR period, perhaps 4 hours work? OIC can notify control and take the truck off the run for a certain time after a particularly busy period?

[Messyshaw]

Taking an appliance off the run to allow a rest period?

Yep - 24hr shifts sounds very efficient 😳😪

[LFB92]

Was merely a suggestion on how it could work, not saying it’s perfect. 

Sarcasm is also not a response that will encourage polite discussion.

[Becile]

We actually had that in place as part of the risk assessment that the union agreed. (Although no set time period specified )Don’t think it was ever required.In the same way that it can requested if deemed necessary on normal 2-2-4 pattern.

[Messyshaw]

1 hour ago, LFB92 said:

Was merely a suggestion on how it could work, not saying it’s perfect. 

Sarcasm is also not a response that will encourage polite discussion.

I was just expressing my opinion and pointing out that if factoring in breaks requiring appliances being taken off the run during extremely busy times must be an achilles heel, as its during these spate conditions when all crews are needed to be available, not resting.

@LFB92. I wont apologise for using sarcasm (as I thought it was a widely accepted method of communicating in the UKFRS), but I am sorry it appears to have angered you. That was not my intention 

[LFB92]

I do see your point, I’m sure a balance could be found with appliance standbys etc. 

No need to apologise, I’m a firefighter the only thing that truly irks me nowadays is when I’ve spent all day preparing a roast without even a sniff of a job and the bells drop just as I’ve dished up! 😂

[Keith]

On 08/11/2020 at 20:37, Becile said:

when we did it (local agreement )

What happened Becile that you are no longer doing it? Did the local agreement breakdown or were the savings not as high as expected?

[Becile]

Local Agreement breakdown,  nothing to do with any savings

 

[Hyperion]

No changing of drivers unless there is a specific reason to do so. Never taken an appliance off the run and never would do. There have been occasions that the second appliance will take a one pump call if the first has been busy, missed meals etc. As said previously, we’ve been working 24s for over eight years now.  No issues at all. 

[Healdav]

On 07/11/2020 at 18:11, TrainHardFightEasy said:

I’m not standing up for poor pay at all. Our wage is still above the average salary in the UK which is around 29k a year. Also, as many others have said we do get 4 days off to earn extra money or even double our salaries. Lots of people have lost their job this year so I feel fortunate to still have a secure job. 

I don't think it's fair to say that you have 4 days off per week. You work 40 hours per week like everyone else, it's just that some happen to be at night. Find a plumber or electrician who isn't working evenings and Saturdays as well as his full time job.

On 08/11/2020 at 18:46, Jet said:

@MessyshawI'm not sure how I could personally justify it as safe, but as many firefighters around the world work 24 and even 48 hour shifts, there must be a way and we would do well to find out from them directly. Hopefully some overseas colleagues will chime in on this one...

As I said earlier, the French have or had, a 24 hour system, but as they live mostly on the station, things are a bit different. I do know that Luxembourg gave up a 24 hour system as the men were falling asleep - they run the ambulance service as well as fire.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Call numbers particularly where I am are reducing year on year. Callouts during our stand down time at night are few & far between.

[BurtMacklin]

It seems to favour less busy stations. Which to be fair is the majority of fire stations. If you are lucky enough to be somewhere that actually ticks over it is significantly less appealing to be at work for a full 24 hours, at least that’s how I see it. 

[JonFromTheLFB]

I always think back to instances like the 2011 riots, which whilst thankfully rare do happen. In that case, firefighters were stsrting at 20:00, being out all night working their backsides off, not being relieved till early afternoon and coming back to station just to do it all over again the next night. 24 hour shifts would mean those crews wouldn't have had to be back the next night and would, in that instance, have provided some resilience with fresh crews available for the next night. 

[BurtMacklin]

what if they had started the shift at 8am? 

[JonFromTheLFB]

Same applies. There would still be a fresh bunch of firefighters ready to go at 8am to take over from crews. 24 hour shifts do provide a greater degree of resilience in instances such as this because there is no 'quick changeover' between shifts. Even between a day shift now firefighters are getting less stand down time with the commute home and the commute back the next day. 

[Percy]

24 hours on 72 hours off or set variances of is like any other set/rigid shift system such as the 2-2-4... in every Fire and Rescue Service report since Bain it has been strongly suggested providing flexible alternatives to rigid patterns to make the job appealing to people from under represented groups and with caring responsibilities who can’t work to a set pattern. After all it’s now 2020... life’s different.

No FRS will just adopt 24’s into a new set pattern - nothing in it for them of note.

It could be offered as a sweetener at some locations when a FRS was doing a review as it would suit some not others. But this would only be part of a wider modernisation of the full suite of shift system options offered - such as in Lancs where one can work several options to suit their and their families circumstances.

In this next decade you will see the end of the ‘one cap fits all’ approach at nearly every FRS in the country, fortunately and decades overdue replaced with a multitude of different options offering people more choice and say in when/how they work... With Self Rostering being by far the best solution for both sides of the fence 😉

[TrainHardFightEasy]

The 224 works well for those who work on their 4 days off & allows for good planning & large chunk of time off with annual leave. 

[Percy]

Works for some doesn’t work for others. Like most things really. But it’s rigidity and that’s ultimately what will be engineered out in time.