LFB 24 Hour Shifts

[Gatts2]

We went to a 24hr shift back in ‘14. Prior to that we worked 2-2-4. The 24 hr model we adopted is based on the Houston schedule. 24 on 24 off 24 on 5 days off. The kicker is every 33/36 days you have to work an impact day. Which means working a 24 hr shift on one of your five days off.  We were compensated for the extra hrs worked. 

As for which I prefer: depends. I’ve found there’s advantages and disadvantages to both.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Like you say Percy having different options including 224 may be the way to go. 

[Messyshaw]

6 hours ago, Percy said:

24 hours on 72 hours off or set variances of is like any other set/rigid shift system such as the 2-2-4... in every Fire and Rescue Service report since Bain it has been strongly suggested providing flexible alternatives to rigid patterns to make the job appealing to people from under represented groups and with caring responsibilities who can’t work to a set pattern. After all it’s now 2020... life’s different.

 

I remember LFB management used the Bain recommendations to justify London's  change start/finish times and specifically mentioning women and childcare.

But as the day shift was moved from 18:00hrs to 20:00hrs, it was universally criticised by everyone (including a FBU Women's group) as not being as family friendly as the 6pm finish and would mean parents not seeing their kids for 4 days - even if if they live close to their station.

You can't beat 2,2,4 as a family friendly system, and far better than the shift system of 2,2,2 when I joined! If you had a busy second night, you would rest the first day off and only get one day off, before back on duty again! I was 18 and loved it, but later when I had a family, I really appreciated the 2,2,4 system 

[Noddy]

As a pedantic so and so it’s 2,2,3 actually 😉

[LFB92]

It’s actually 4 periods of 24 hours so technically it is 4 😉😂

[Messyshaw]

4 hours ago, Noddy said:

As a pedantic so and so it’s 2,2,3 actually 😉

The legal egg heads at the Advertising Standards Authority have looked into this after the LFB were reported by someone (🤔) for a FF job ad claiming the role attracts a shift with 4 days off when its clearly 3 whole days as you work 9.5 hours of your first day off!

However, like @LFB92, the ASA concluded it was 4 x 24hr periods, thereby 4 days!

[Becile]

21 hours ago, Noddy said:

As a pedantic so and so it’s 2,2,3 actually 😉

If were splitting hairs 2,2  3 and a half ...lol

[Noddy]

Everyday is a school day.... although it’s still 2,2,3 😂

[Percy]

On 14/11/2020 at 14:20, Messyshaw said:

...You can't beat 2,2,4 as a family friendly system...

Messy that’s very subjective though - what’s ‘Family Friendly’ to some isn’t to another’s.

You can beat any rigid inflexible system though and in the case of the 2-2-4 ‘sacred cow’ quite easily. If you need more than 4 Rota’s off you have to take leave.... and hope you can get it. Alternatively you might be stuck at home on your own for 4 days when your family are out working and are at school and could have worked and used the time when they are not.

As a shift system designer one can wrap them selves up in the formulae and Maths of how a person actually works 152 shifts per year.

However, despite 15 plus variances of systems around currently, there are only two types of premise of shift system.

One which the employer mandates when you work or don’t.

One in which the employee has control in when they work or don’t.

Now which one off the two is ‘family friendly’?

Which one of the two is likely to (by likely read as fact and demonstrates) to reduce ‘Short term sickness’?

Which one will attract more people?

[Out In The Past]

On 19/11/2020 at 08:16, Percy said:

One which the employer mandates when you work or don’t.

One in which the employee has control in when they work or don’t.

The latter brings about the end of the Watch system. 

You go from working with people who you know, spend 48 hours a week with and regard as friends, understanding their strengths and weakenesses, to working with just colleagues and seeing faces of people you ‘know’ but don’t know. 

Careful what you wish for. 

[Matt]

Up here its same watch just 24 hours on, 24 off, 24 on then 5 off.  The Lincs crewing system you are on station frim 0730 till 1800 (or there about's), if out during the night you just start on station later in the day to make up time.

[Percy]

On 17/12/2020 at 20:52, Out In The Past said:

The latter brings about the end of the Watch system. 

You go from working with people who you know, spend 48 hours a week with and regard as friends, understanding their strengths and weakenesses, to working with just colleagues and seeing faces of people you ‘know’ but don’t know. 

Careful what you wish for. 

Hi mate - I’m not Willy waving here by any means and sorry of it comes across that way but my Degree was on the subject of Shift Systems and I have spent about 4 years of my career designing them so naturally I understand that Self Rostering ‘would end’ the watch system that is there due to rigid overlapping patterns.

But the argument that with a watch system ‘you know your colleagues strengths and weaknesses’ as a means to prohibit offering more flexible working options to people in the 21st century is pretty weak. One could argue that allowing more exposure to the rest of the stations personnel, training with more people and learning from each other rather than just the few others on your watch would be far more beneficial. As for not knowing each other,... over time this would dilute too where people did and to where the station establishment was more of a whole team rather than the more insular world of 4 teams working within it. 

In every other sector where Self Rostering operates one can argue the same ‘hurdles’ would have been there from the outset and yet have been overcome.

Don’t get me wrong there still is a place for some stations operating on a rigid pattern. It’s just there is also a place for offering alternative (as is legally required) systems too... but driven by the employee not the employer.

[Keith]

9 hours ago, Percy said:

but driven by the employee not the employer.

There is one fundamental flaw with this though Percy, unless you are self employed when you can decide when you work or not, if your are employed, ultimately you have to work when your employer needs you to work. Even with the flexibility of self roistering, you still need a set amount of people on duty at the required time, all of which are set by the employer.

[LFB92]

A bonus of the current watch system in London, i can work out what I’m working in 10 years time. I’ve never had to miss anything due to work as you are able to plan so far in advance

[Noddy]

But there’s no flexibility in that? You’re making your life fit around your shifts not the other way round.  

And Keith I see your point but if you’re self employed you still ultimately have to work?

[Becile]

@LFB92sort of agree, but that only remains true if there no watch changes (ultimately the service can change that if they need due to operational need) promotion etc, 10 years pushing it I think, but I get your point. I’ve moved Rota groups before and generally leave has been honoured, but nothing outside of that calendar year.

[Jet]

I see the benefits in both systems. I'm not convinced by the 'end of the watch culture' argument. I know the people on the other watches fairly well and also agree that watches can become somewhat insular and set in their ways (good or bad).

I've some way to be convinced by self-rostering as well though. What happens when one or two people keep stomping their feet for every weekend off? We all know of certain people that have a penchant for getting their own way. I also note it would bring to an end the long periods of leave we have, being able to combine leave with rota days.

[Yoffey]

Percy, I don't really understand the flexible rostering concept. What advantages does it give to the employer and is their much of a reduction in staffing. Could it be used in a metropolitan brigade ?

[OscarTango]

@Out In The Past is right. Self rostering very much does end the watch culture. It just replaces it with something not all that dissimilar, just bigger.

The beef with self rostering here goes something like this:
It was introduced to reduce establishment levels without compulsory redundancies. Check, it did that. However many view that as double edged sword that would also break up a watch culture than some in senior management saw as "backward" or not fit for the modern fire service. I'm paraphrasing but this is the common complaint from a large segment of the workforce that feel like management is against them and that self rostering was some sort of underhand punishment.

On the practical level it means yes, watches were broken up. Some very close ones. But those former watches still see each other all the time, and if they are total BFFs, there's nothing to stop them plotting most of their shifts together in theory.

It just also means that the more random nature of the roster means they will work with four times as many people and not all of them they may like. That's fine, we're only human and we can't all be best chums, but the memory of being in a gang of mates (and not having to deal with awkward social dynamics) is still fresh to many and it feels like part of what they loved about the job has been taken away. (Again, not my own feelings, but this is what is talked about round mess tables)

My personal gripe with it is continuity. We can do 24s here, self rostered. Last month however I decided not to do any 24s. I dont live far from work so traveling isn't much of an issue, but the long gaps between being at work and not I found annoying and difficult to get back into "work" mode. Things like answering emails, following up defects/orders, even just getting more shouts, I find it better when you are in little and often. It's still the same hours in a year but I feel i make more progress on individual shifts. Especially when it comes to training/drills.

All that said, I'm effin' grateful for having the option of doing 24s, and if I lived further away I would certainly do them mostly. 24s are one of the more liked things about our system. The reduction in establishment has made the bugs in the system far worse, especially now with Covid, but bums on seats is a problem on both 224 and SR.

Ive done SR and been on watches.  I was lucky in that both places ive worked on a watch I had excellent colleagues and loved coming in. I do miss that. But SR really isnt that bad an I enjoy the flexibilty and the variety of faces. Had I been on a watch I hated it would have been like winning the lottery. SR is made or broken by having enough people to man it, and right now here the cracks are really showing.

[Percy]

On 19/12/2020 at 22:25, Keith said:

...Even with the flexibility of self roistering, you still need a set amount of people on duty at the required time, all of which are set by the employer.

You are right - the employer states that in our case we need 5 or 4 per truck, consisting of. J.O at least one EFAD and two or three in the back per shift. With SR just who they are for that particular shift is down to the employees. How can having more choice and control to be their or not not be beneficial for the stations establishment? 

On 20/12/2020 at 08:19, LFB92 said:

A bonus of the current watch system in London, i can work out what I’m working in 10 years time. I’ve never had to miss anything due to work as you are able to plan so far in advance

Well it’s the same as any 2-2-4. In theory you can plan for the next 10 years.... great. Until you get transfers to another watch with 14-28 days notice which can and does happen. Granted I know then you can plan for another decade or at least I theory.

The rigidity of 2-2-4 “I am able to plan 10 years in advance” is I also it Achilles heel. It’s inflexible when people need it. Want more than 4 days off in a run? Annual leave or swaps. Could rather do more nights on particular month due to having the kids during school holidays until your partner comes home this leaving your annual for family times? Good luck on 2-2-4. Would rather have Saturday days off to help run the kids football team? Good luck on 2-2-4. Etc. Etc.

On 20/12/2020 at 15:45, Jet said:

...I've some way to be convinced by self-rostering as well though. What happens when one or two people keep stomping their feet for every weekend off? We all know of certain people that have a penchant for getting their own way. I also note it would bring to an end the long periods of leave we have, being able to combine leave with rota days.

Jamie - they can’t! They can huff and blow their checks out all they want but ultimately it’s run by the crew and the Station Commander (I know one that would run it like a Rolls Royce V12 🤪)

Nobody can dodge working weekends or any other shifts, each person has 3.8 (on average) weekend shifts to do per month and 8.8 (on average) mon-fri shifts to do per month - just chose them around you and your families/other interests/commitments.

In terms of long leave I can’t think of any system that can provide this better!

Believe me, as I’ve said to others - more FRS will have to offer more flexible options in the future... don’t be frightened of SR, it’s an upgrade on what you have now.

[Percy]

On 21/12/2020 at 15:13, Yoffey said:

Percy, I don't really understand the flexible rostering concept. What advantages does it give to the employer and is their much of a reduction in staffing. Could it be used in a metropolitan brigade ?

Well for the employer it’s more efficient - and yes that does mean they can offer the same level of crewing with less people, and yes that does mean cheaper.

With the need for 4 symmetrical established overlapping watches for the 2-2-4 you have more people than you actually need in so far as ridership positions per year per pump.

For example, at a one pump station currently you will normally find 4 watches of 7... 28. With SR you need 24, you are maximising efficiently (thats the last time I sound like ‘one of those’).

What difference is there in a Met than a Shire in terms of crewing and how many you need for a pump/Station? Sorry I’m not being facetious I just don’t know how you might think it would be any different due to the classification of the conurbation.

[Becile]

4 watches of 7...luxury Percy.;-)I remember those giddy days.

[Percy]

1 hour ago, Becile said:

4 watches of 7...luxury Percy.;-)I remember those giddy days.

Yeah, it’s the same formula though that ‘Surrey’ used (🤪) when they wanted to remove the Ridership Factor but still retain the 2-2-4. Same maths. In Surrey’s case they wanted min/max 4 riders per pump instead of 5. 

This meant Watch Strengths of 5 were enough... 19.2 people would have ‘been desired’ but those .2 of a person are hard to come by so you have 4 symmetrical  Watches of 5.

[Becile]

I can think of a few who are .2....lol

[Healdav]

I have just remembered that there is a pan-European committee on firefighting practices. Why not ask them to look into this. Before any move is made it would be useful, to say the least, to know what experience has been with the different shift patterns in other countries.

The only time I was in contact with this committee they were starting to try and harmonise training across the EU )I happened to take a call from London from the British Secretary wanting to know whether the European Commission had statistics on different types of fire in different countries (no). This problem or proposal sounds the sort of thing they cpould look at.