LFB 24 Hour Shifts

[Healdav]

French firefighters work 24 hour shifts, but most of them live on the station. There has, over the past 3 or 4 years, been a lot of discussion about it, and a lot of people are against it, as they never get any proper time off.

Any Brigade thinking about this ought to go and see what actually happens where it is already in place, Otherwise it will be a case of Britain moving to 24 hours and those on it going to something like the British system. Which is not exactly sensible.

Or maybe it is just a case of ,"the grass is greener".

[Hyperion]

Been doing 24’s for over 8 years at a busy station. Nobody I know within the brigade would go back to 2-2-4. 

[Out In The Past]

I few years back I spoke to someone on the recruitment side for LFB and she stressed they don’t want people to see the job as their second job, and their part time work as their main job. Switching to 24s would be detrimental to this for LFB, so I don’t think they’d ever take it. 
 

Add in that 24 shift at Wennington would feel about a month long 😂 

[Paul LFB]

You dont need a 24hr shift for that to happen

[Desserts]

I think a lot of people need to be realistic about second jobs. The question needs to be asked why do people do them. Because the pay has fallen behind and people can't afford to live support their families and provide a home on poor wages.

Historically FF have not been able to do overtime to earn more money and have had to look for secondary employment. Now there is OT but for the select few.

I had people and close friends say "you are lucky to be able to do a second job" when I challenge "Lucky" explain wages they realise listening to the media and government is misleading.

When you now have scaffolders working 4 on 4 off on the Thames tideway project on PAYE getting paid £60k/year you realise how bad a FF's situation can be.

I am talking from a London point of view!

 

[BurtMacklin]

The limit for overtime in London is very restrictive at something like 144 hours in a 6 month period which isn’t a lot of shifts at all. 

[Jet]

@BurtMacklin that's the maximum OT allowed as stipulated in FBU grey book so not a LFB thing by any means.

[Becile]

Its equivalent to 24 hours a month, so a day and a  night shift if on 224 or 2 shifts if on 12 hour shifts.(only apllies to pre arranged OT) does not include incidental (late incident /awaiting standby etc)

Anything else is generally by local agreement.

[BurtMacklin]

it is still unnecessarily restrictive, I care more about paying my mortgage and bills than I do about there being a full establishment of officers in the service. 

[Messyshaw]

@BurtMacklin. Its a sad truth of today's society that anyone could have such an insular view, AND be happy to admit it!

During pretty much my entire 32 years with the LFB there was a FBU pre arranged overtime ban aimed at creating jobs for others. 

I was happy to be part of this altruistic policy and it worked. After I left the watch system PAO was back on the agenda and guess what, FF jobs were cut shortly after.

Pre arranged overtime cuts jobs. Jobs for your son, daughter, neighbour or grandchild. If you need to top up your salary - God knows I did- theres plenty of part time work out there. 

As a Watch Manager, I welcomed the skills members of my watch bought from their part time job for 'me' to use on the fireground. From builders and roofers, to car mechanics and HGV drivers- all added something to incidents that would not have been available if they did not part time in the real world

Indeed, keeping contact with the working world outside the fire service can motivate you on a grumpy day as the realisation that the job isn't so bad as others out there.

PAO shows how the FBU has lost its way from its progressive past to where it just looks after its own 😒

 

[BurtMacklin]

I can see that side of it and I’m sure my view seems blunt but altruism doesn’t pay the bills and a reasonable increase in the punitive 144 hours would be most welcomed. It seems to me like when cuts come around, they manage to cut establishments and service sizes regardless of the current bottle neck on PAO hours. I’ve gone out the doors and worked to rule when the union have asked it of me, it doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything they have done, are doing, or will do. Rant over, it’s not changing any time soon 🤣

[Out In The Past]

At risk of going off topic but I genuinely don’t think we earn a bad wage - near £40k when we are going to bed for almost 1/3 of a 42 hour shift. Granted not all nights will be undisturbed and there will be times I’m working hard and blowing out my A, but a scaffolder on £60k ain’t sitting down and watching TV and being paid for it. 

obviously I’d take more money like anyone, but the fact is I’ve had office jobs on £40k that came with stress and worry. Here I work and go home.

To bring it back to topic, the 2-2-4 already feels distant for me, particularly if you do outduties, so 24s would feel like I’d hardly ever see the watch and that interaction is a big part of work for me.

[Becile]

Having been in service for a considerable time , it’s interesting that grey book limits on POA are considered “punitive” I get we live in an ever changing world, OT was always a luxury (lucky if you made 10 a month..(and none of it pre arranged ) in a time where mortgage rates where way way higher than now, and other costs of living were comparable , given that point in time. So still had to make ends meet in whatever way.  Our basic wage has always been just that, so anything outside of that is a bonus. I can’t remember seeing any job adverts now or in the past that stated our salary as £xxxx plus the opportunity to earn pre arranged OT, I stand to be corrected though.

If your doing it to make a larger wage, (for whatever reason) then a ff wage may not suffice, it’s a harsh reality. But we are all different and I respect those with other views, my fire service career may not have made me rich in ££, (I’m comfortable now, but I’ve had to work hard to get to that level, which has seen some twists and turns) but it certainly has in other areas.

[Desserts]

A competent FF salary is £31k, in London plus about £5k London weighting. Even if they can save a £50k deposit they cannot buy a home because their salary is poor and the mortgage multiple and affordability calculator will NOT give them a big enough mortgage to buy.

In real terms to work and live in London for example is not affordable because the wage is poor.

I can understand that as SubO with 20 years in £40K doesn't sound bad, but if you've done 20 years you have probably been on the property ladder for 15 plus years.

A gas safe plumber who"s father was LFB joined London, took at 12 week break from his plumbing business for training school. Once at the fire station he HAD to resign after 3 month because he could not afford the drop in wages on the FF salary and plumbing part time. He was struggling to meet the mortgage and household expenses that he'd got based on his plumbing salary. He's back plumbing full time and affording to live. He has now put his dad through his gas safe qualifications. His dad is now plumbing/boiler fitting part time and earning more per year than he was as crew manager.

Looking at trades mens income and workers incomes on London's infrastructure projects (Tideway, Crossrail, HS2) £35-£40K is poor. Even the Graduate apprentice on Tideway is on £30k plus

I will say I thought the salary was ok when in the job, but now I'm out in the "real" world working it really shows up how bad the pay is. Public sector used to be lower wages and a good pension. Well they screwed the pension now!

[TrainHardFightEasy]

The key point is we rarely “work” all day for 8+ hours or at night for 10+ hours. When you work out the hourly rate for the amount of true work we do it’s actually very good. Trades workers graft 5 days a week & have 2 days off. 

[Desserts]

Sounds like you're standing up for poor pay. 48 hours at work over 2 days and 2 nights is 48 hours at work! A tube driver sits down all day, lazy bugger!

 

[Br9mp81]

1 hour ago, TrainHardFightEasy said:

The key point is we rarely “work” all day for 8+ hours or at night for 10+ hours. When you work out the hourly rate for the amount of true work we do it’s actually very good. Trades workers graft 5 days a week & have 2 days off. 

PMSL at that if your saying FFTRs should only be paid when on a job, fine make the whole service RTS then, and as for trades working alll day all week( whilst i admitt a lot are trying to catch up on jobs) i could never get my CH serviced in september as the guy was at his villa in spain all month

[TrainHardFightEasy]

I’m not standing up for poor pay at all. Our wage is still above the average salary in the UK which is around 29k a year. Also, as many others have said we do get 4 days off to earn extra money or even double our salaries. Lots of people have lost their job this year so I feel fortunate to still have a secure job. 

[Desserts]

FF should NOT have to work their rest days to support their families should they? The should get paid a fair wage. 

I will say I am definitely seeing this from Greater London point of view with housing cost, travel cost etc

£31k in an area where a house is 1/3 the price of London is a different matter!

House prices in London have risen by 1.6 per cent since November 2019, taking the average property value up to £483,922. Back in December 2018, the price of a semi-detached house came in at £579,876. Now, the cost of the same house will set homeowners back £590,170.

As the market stands as of February 2020, the average house price in the UK was 230.3 thousand British pounds. 

[Br9mp81]

In 1990 when i left HMF i put in for a job in the home counties at an airfield they rang me up and asked me if i could afford to move there on a ffs wage.

[Becile]

Anyway...back to the topic - 24 hour shifts, maybe one of the mods can move the rest of the conversation around POA and living costs to another thread, as we appear to have gone way of topic.

[Desserts]

Sorry 

[Keith]

Bringing this back on topic, thanks @Becile, one thing I can't see in moving to 24 hour shifts is where are the savings other than than a small amount of casual overtime for calls running over, due to there being less shift changes.

All the new improved duty systems are usually justified by this will save £1000's, as far as I can tell from previous discussion on this, you still require four watches, so there's no savings there and other than there being some element of self roistering, the numbers required will still be the same.

[Desserts]

When other brigades have swapped to 24s they have virtually halve casual OT , halved standby moves, halved direct standbys.

As CM+ in London I used to take home more than the WM with all the stbys. 

I know things have changed in London since I retired but the out duties are still on going for officer cover. Therefore the saving would still be in the £1000s

One issue would be child care and single parents! Another is job shares and part time working arrangement 

[Messyshaw]

I have read lots of posts and none have demonstrated how wearing BA or driving on the bell after 23 continuous hours on duty can be justified or safe?

Some of you will be in your 20s and 30s and will cope on 99% of occasions. But what about that storm which leads to spate calls, or run of multiple  shouts or if you pick up a couple of reliefs which impact on rest time?

Then when you get into your 40s and 50s, will you cope then quite as well.

Convince me its safe, as I want to believe it, but I just can't