LFB Pay Offer

[OscarTango]

On 14/01/2023 at 12:28, Dyson said:

What is point you are unsuccessfully attempting to make ?

Pfft dunno. Thinking aloud. Not all my material is pure gold 🤷‍♀️. Not entirely wrong though. Regional pay differences is seen by some in the corridors of power as a good thing. Maybe it is. Separate discussion.
 

On 14/01/2023 at 15:11, Dyson said:

Firefighters in London have to read and listen to cozy people out in the countryside lecture them and criticise them about topics like grenfell  and the culture review, they have to read here how they have disgusted members of this forum…..and now this. All the same anti narrative just different subject. 

After many years here, I recently unsubscribed from this once wonderful cyber meeting point for like minded firefighters. I’m just bored of reading the predictable anti LFB stuff. It’s not a good look, or a positive thing for any of us to be continually be exposed to.

LFB is like the the USA.

Big, bold, glamorous, and takes up a disproportionate amount of the limelight. How could it not be, being the largest and busiest and most high profile FRS in the country?

Im going to do a bit of mind reading here: What is idle discussion here by us non-LFBers could feel more like an attack on those actually in LFB and experiencing the issues first hand. We can cheerfully opine about Grenfell or Culture Reviews or whatever, for you guys it is the actual shitty end of a shitty stick that effects your day to day life in the job. So I get the anger in your post. Bottom line I dont think anyone here has anything but props for the LFB in reality.

On 14/01/2023 at 15:11, Dyson said:

What about the areas of the UK who have preferential pensions arrangements? Where the criticism? What about countryside stations doing no calls getting 20 or 30 percent more money ? Where is the criticism ? What about those brigades doing 24’s outside the grey book ? Where is the criticism?

The obvious difference here chief is that those things haven't just suddenly popped up as a sweetener in the middle of an industrial dispute which could massively affect the outcome of any strike decision ( and there is *plenty* of bile from other brigades about those who do 24s trust me).

Where does your circle of solidarity end, your immediate mates in your own Brigade or your counterparts across the country as well? Sounds a bit like youve got the F*ck-ems with the rest of us at this stage. If so I'm sorry (like I say, everyone backs LFB end of the day) but lets not pretend that LFB suddenly evaporating from the ballot wouldn't have an impact on us all.

[TandA]

4 hours ago, OscarTango said:

but lets not pretend that LFB suddenly evaporating from the ballot wouldn't have an impact on us all.

It would probably require a complete re-ballot for starters with the cost, aggro and delay that brings.  As I understand it, It isn’t as simple as just not counting LFB votes.  The ballot is one member, one vote.  All those WT LFB on call elsewhere members will currently have voted under their WT LFB membership.  If the LFB were to be excluded then they should have had a vote in their on call service.

[Keith]

As some of the other posters have said, the LFB offer is clearly an attempt to break the national pay rates negotiated through the NJC and to divide the FBU. Question has to be who is behind it and why is the LFB Commissioner doing their bidding?

If it's the government, he should be well aware that they threw his predecessor under the bus, if it's the London Mayor, has he made similar offers to Nurses, LAS, NHS workers and others who are also in disputes over pay? Also isn't he supposed to be Labour, so why would he be trying to divide a union? though having said that the past national strikes were under Labour governments.

Have to also agree with what @TandA has said, it makes a complete mockery of the democratic process in the current ballot. This has been ongoing for weeks and is still running, so if you are a LFB member who has already voted, what do you do? Ask for your ballot back if you want to accept the new offer?

[BurtMacklin]

Pretty sure the mayor of london has no say in NHS pay negotiations and while LAS has London in its name it is an NHS trust 

[Jet]

On 15/01/2023 at 15:57, Bgjm21 said:

Fbu screwed us over north of the border a few years ago regarding a 17% pay offer. If this is pushed through then the National fbu is done in Scotland.

Maybe rightfully so given how different the governments we deal with are..

Care to give us the full story? Instead of the usual 'the FBU screwed us over' rhetoric?

[Bgjm21]

Offer was made by Scot gov and SFRS to the fbu at tail end of 2018 with a deadline of April 2019 to coincide with new budget.

However was not presented by FBU to members until March to ensure that if there was a rejection that there was not sufficient time to renegotiate. This is word for word from the chief.

Previously to the rejection It was insisted to us by the chief that there would be no second offer and this was all they had. Fbu insisted there would be a second offer and they had a contingency in the event we rejected. So we do and low and behold the chief was telling the truth and the fbu asks us to write to our MSP’s. That was their grand promised strategy…. Write a letter

Beyond this they gave away our detached duty payment for nothing, they have an agreement with the service to allow them to drop x number of appliances a day. They recently allowed a second pump to be taken away and replaced by a TTL at a loss of 10 firefighter jobs and said nothing to object or even mention to residents that they were losing 50% of traditional fire cover. these are just the latest in a long line of failures. Happy to drop you a PM if you would like more detail.

[Joke1698]

I understand that this is a 'good' deal, however it is the only one that is dangled in front of us. We do need to boil it down though due to the fact that this is a three year deal, equaling 13% which tries to include three pay rises, one of which is a pay rise that includes a 2% rise as an MTA payment, which we could see as a 'pay rise' for the 2020-2021 year when the annual inflation was 2.6%, so still a paycut.

So once we discount that, we are left with this year's 'pay rise' of 6%, which is an absolute joke of an offer in the first place considering what firefighters across the brigade were doing during the pandemic, and then coming from that into the summer we had, the obvious lack of front line staff, the amount of appliances off the run, and the huge risk firefighters put themselves under being at incidents for hours with no sign of reliefs in 35°+ heat. When inflation is taken into account this is still a 4% pay cut for the pleasure of dealing with this year. 

So that leaves us with next years 'pay rise' (2022-2023) of 5% when inflation is expected to be running at nearly 10% for the majority of the year. So another 5% pay cut, however this time we have no chance to negotiate this. 

Where does that leave us? An almost 10% real terms pay cut over the course of 2-3 years, all while throwing our brothers and sisters in other brigades firmly under the bus. And If, by some miracle they all go out the door and get a better deal, we will benefit by not going out the door once. 

Sorry for the waffle guys, and happy to be corrected on any of my above points.

[WTTJ]

So this would put a LFB FF on just over 42k PA? I can't see the union offering it to ballot as I don't think the offer has gone through the proper channels. 

[Harve88]

@WTTJ from the figures I’ve been sent (not checked) with the MTA payment and after the second 5% increase the salaries would be 

• FF £43525
• LFF £47501
• SubO £50653
• StnO £56663

(All competent)

[Br9mp81]

I take it some of this includes London weighting allowance?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Keith
Quote of post directly above removed

[Aspire]

London Weighting was assumed into basic pay around 5yrs ago so doesn't exist anymore. I think you are asking if there is anything to add on to those figures, the answer is no.

[Br9mp81]

13 hours ago, Aspire said:

London Weighting was assumed into basic pay around 5yrs ago so doesn't exist anymore. I think you are asking if there is anything to add on to those figures, the answer is no.

Thanks, its just that the press will i dare say ,that all FFTRS are on 42K, and not take that into account

[Luminoki]

The press are already saying a median FF salary is 35k so we’ll never win that one

[Mike23]

They always do that, use London salary as means to define earned money nationwide. Thankfully it's not as effective anymore.

[TandA]

On 21/01/2023 at 10:23, Luminoki said:

The press are already saying a median FF salary is 35k so we’ll never win that one

I wonder how they are getting their figure.  The median ff salary won’t be £35k.  I wonder whether the median operational fire service personnel salary could be close to £35k?  That said, half the journos printing this crap don’t know the difference between mean median and mode so we probably don’t have a hope in hell of working out how they came by the figures which makes disputing them rather difficult.

[Rich]

Latest circular I had said the EC and London regional committee had stated they only would agree to a national grey book pay rise through the NJC, they have given 10 days from close of ballot to facilitate real talks with employers to try and reach this.

Also had it from a mate in Manchester that they have been offered the same pay rise as London. So that’s at least 2 large brigades at the table who want this settled, even before the result of the ballot is back.

[LFB92]

The message from Manchester stated that if they don’t get the offer national they will settle it locally

From Manchester

Good morning,

*CURRENT PAY SITUATION* 

Myself and the Brigade Chair met with the CFO and DCFO yesterday to discuss the London pay offer and implications here in GM

It is Andy Burnham’s intention to write to the Joint Secretaries of the NJC and inform them that he can match the offer of 6% for this year and 5% next year to aid discussions on pay at a National level. Similar to London though, should that not be achievable, then he will seek to agree a deal on pay locally. At this time he hasn’t indicated whether this would be an improvement on what is on the table in LFB

I will ensure all correspondence on this matter is shared with members when available 

Clearly this is a highly emotive subject and it is hoped our Executive Council are able to work closely with the employers to achieve a national settlement on pay without the necessity for strike action 

We have now seen 3 offers on pay (albeit the latest is localised to LFB) without a ballot result

This indicates that there is huge pressure to come to an agreement within the sector on pay. 

Thank you to each and everyone of you who continue to work hard on our campaign for fair pay. Anyone that hasn’t yet returned there branch voting numbers please can you do so by Monday to Brigade Organiser @⁨*******************⁩ 

I will ensure Brigade Committee is kept informed of developments as they happen

Don’t forget we have a BCM on the 1st February, exact details will be shared in due course

Many thanks again and enjoy your weekends

In Unity

Dave Pike
GMFBU Secretary

Edited January 23, 2023 by Carl
Mobile Phone Number Removed

[Rich]

FBU is dead if everyone starts taking local offers

[Jet]

There's a path now to the resolution of this dispute. Chiefs and heads of authorities need to buck up now and get this sorted. Government also need to step in to fund the brigades that can't afford the LFB offer. But we know they'd rather see us go out on strike and implode from within.

[Crog]

That’s the problem Jet. How many can afford it. My service could stretch to 3% overall for last year and would then need to make cuts to continue paying that scale. I can’t see many that could pay it without additional funding and it’s looking like that won’t happen anytime soon.

[Messyshaw]

4 hours ago, Rich said:

FBU is dead if everyone starts taking local offers

Most definitely. The idea of the Govt helping out catch strapped counties to keep up with the big Met boys is as likely as me waking up next to Kate Winslet tomorrow morning.

If London and perhaps Manchester go it alone, that will be the end of any national fire service negotiations or agreements forever and a hugely detrimental move moving forward.

So will it be 'unity is strength' or 'up yours Jack, I am OK'???   😒

[Brandman]

I’m still yet to have anybody give me a sensible or logical explanation of how or why our fire commissioner, and the Labour mayor for London, are remotely interested in “dividing and conquering” the National workforce?

Their interest and remit exists within the M25, why does anybody think they care about the nationwide pay dispute?

People are saying that accepting this offer would be “the end of the FBU”, but I don’t think anybody realises that not giving London firefighters autonomy with accepting or rejecting the offer may very well cause swathes to leave the FBU, also spelling “the end”.

[Guest]

I dont think its divide and conquer per se but they do know the consequences of making local deals, should one be accepted. They also know the role of the unions and NJC in the process of negotiating pay and are attempting to circumnavigate that process by making a localised pay offer... 

If the tories did it people would be up in arms but because its come from a labour mayor it's somehow less of an affront.

Remember Blair? Socialist Rhetoric used to sell tory policy.

[Harve88]

They will have to give the London members a vote on it I’m sure, if they don’t and the offer is lost  I think there will be different issues to contend with 😕

[Rich]

15 hours ago, Brandman said:

I’m still yet to have anybody give me a sensible or logical explanation of how or why our fire commissioner, and the Labour mayor for London, are remotely interested in “dividing and conquering” the National workforce?

Their interest and remit exists within the M25, why does anybody think they care about the nationwide pay dispute?

People are saying that accepting this offer would be “the end of the FBU”, but I don’t think anybody realises that not giving London firefighters autonomy with accepting or rejecting the offer may very well cause swathes to leave the FBU, also spelling “the end”.

Isn’t the whole point of a union to be a united workforce to take on the employer  as a collective. If we are divided on issues as big as pay then it’s pointless having a union. 
 

I agree that perhaps the London mayor does not care about the overall affect a local offer could have on our union nationally, they just want to a avoid a London strike. But the members should certainly care and be able to see the bigger picture.