Who Still Has Beds?

[OscarTango]

Sorry.....they hauled aloft a 135 at Grenfell?......

[Harve88]

I honestly don’t get what they gain by removing beds.

Before I was in the fire service I couldn’t have cared less what crews did at night, and would have preferred them to be rested if I needed them 

Like @BurtMacklin said luckily London are converting the dorms to single rooms throughout the brigade going forward.

[Chanchan168]

when I say working hours its best if I explain. Back in 89 we signed up to a pay deal where the chief wanted our start / finish times, meal breaks and defined rest period stated in what we call our "work routines" document. 

As part of the review the local government has proposed that as we have a defined rest period written into the document from 2330 to 0700 they are stating that it complies with what they class as "On Call at Work" similar to what a carers sleep in arrangements would look like. This attracts a lower pay point equivalent to 3/8ths time instead of flat rate and that would mean a pay cut for those hours where we are on nights.

We state that these are defined as working hours not on call hours, therefore standard rate of pay applies, not the reduced that comes with on call at work. What we are suggesting to avoid this reduction is to remove the defined rest period from the work routines, meaning they stay as "working hours" but we would still attract the uplift for unsocial hours.

In theory - nothing wold change - just the removal of the period from the routines. No one will be around to check and we would not be expected to work and undertake drills, merely be operational ready when required and can rest, as we currently do now, be it without a designated dorm. 

If we are to share a station with local Ambo, I personally wouldn't want our nightly workload compared to them and having designated dorms isn't going to happen, therefore a room where we can rest but not designated sleeping, is a compromise with the added unsocial hours payments attached. 

Hope that helps

[Noddy]

Sounds ridiculous to me.  

[BurtMacklin]

On 28/01/2023 at 09:15, OscarTango said:

Sorry.....they hauled aloft a 135 at Grenfell?......

yep, I don’t know how much of it was down to time spent in the gym and how much was sheer force of will, I’d probably say the latter 

[Jet]

17 hours ago, Noddy said:

Sounds ridiculous to me.  

To the point 😆

This is enough of a counter-argument to removal of beds as you're ever likely to need.

[Chanchan168]

2 hours ago, Jet said:

To the point 😆

This is enough of a counter-argument to removal of beds as you're ever likely to need.

Yeah really helped thanks 😂

Just now, Chanchan168 said:

Yeah really helped thanks 😂

Meant 😞 not smiley 🤦‍♂️

[OscarTango]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that senior management were embarrassed about having to specify beds in the design breif with their Ambulance counterparts and perused this whole "b...b..but we're getting rid of them!" saga to save a bit of face. 

[Chanchan168]

I think that's how it would have would have gone down yes

[FireAshG30]

Can I ask which Brigade do you work for that is planning these changes, and where the extra money is being sourced from?

many thanks 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Carl
Quote removed as its a direct quote of the previous post. Please read FAQ.

[Cass]

On 29/01/2023 at 14:30, Chanchan168 said:

...In theory - nothing wold change - just the removal of the period from the routines. No one will be around to check and we would not be expected to work and undertake drills, merely be operational ready when required and can rest, as we currently do now, be it without a designated dorm.

If we are to share a station with local Ambo, I personally wouldn't want our nightly workload compared to them and having designated dorms isn't going to happen, therefore a room where we can rest but not designated sleeping, is a compromise with the added unsocial hours payments attached. 

Hope that helps

Yes, in theory nothing would change but once its written out, it then becomes even more fair game in the future. Your current CFO is happy with this arrangement, but what happens when you get a new CFO? They might have other ideas...

We have joint Fire/Ambo stations and still have beds at them with no issues...

[FireAshG30]

On 09/03/2023 at 10:58, Percy said:

There will be more stations where you can work 24 but not SDS. You will never see SDS on 24s as a fixed pattern - sorry to disappoint.

Sorry to disappoint but all Humberside and Luton and Bedfordshire Wholetime stations are 24 hour shifts.

Still 4 watches. But only 2 24 hour shifts over 8 days instead of the traditional 2/2/4.

Have mentioned it in my Brigade, it’s a no………so far!

[Percy]

Sorry to disappoint but I meant here in GMFRS, the question related to taking on 24hr shifts across the board at 2-2-4 fire stations.

Whats in it for the service? It’s just yet another rigid shift system that they have been told to start moving away from in 2002, 2013, 2015 and more recently.

[FireAshG30]

I very much doubt rigid shift systems are disappearing.

Our Brigade is just starting a massive new station and refurbishment program.

all stations are going to have individual bedrooms installed.

which is going to be very interesting, and challenging as I am at a new station that never had the space created for Dormitories let Alone individual Rooms when built less that a decade ago.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Carl
Quote removed as its a direct quote of the previous post. Please see FAQ.

[Percy]

Yeah Rochdale and others of that era, Bury, Ashton etc. will be harder to retrofit than even some of the older ones that had dorms.

Rigid patterns won’t disappear in their entirety, there will still be 2-2-4 at some locations, it’s just that many FRS have already started to diversify what they offer to allow more choice for people which is what the Bane report, Knights review and Thomas report specifically suggested and ultimately to reduce costs too.

We had the one cap fits all approach but 2-2-2-4 was designed before Margaret Thatcher even came to power in May 1979 and the world is a totally different place now and flexibility is seemed by many as far more attractive and beneficial than rigid patterns.

Duty Systems will once again be debated at Conference thorough. 

[TrainHardFightEasy]

I like 2-2-4 as i’m very much a person of a routine & structure. However, if i could work 3 days & 1 night instead i would do that.

[Navigator]

As far as I understand it the flexible 224 lancs is looking at requires an equal number of days and nights 

[Percy]

In theory - it’s just allowing more control in when you work. If it suits some to do a few days less and more nights and visa versa… who cares? 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Carl
Quote removed as its a direct quote of the previous post. Please see FAQ

[Navigator]

@Percy

Agreed, but seems inevitable that more will want days than nights. Also the loss of fixed watches on a flexible 224 will have a lot of issues, if a watch of 14 on a 2 pump plus special station becomes 48 on a flexible crewing arrangement then maintaining competency will become a real headache surely, amongst other issues.

[Percy]

@Navigator The 'surely it will affect training, watch/team dynamics' etc etc. questions have been done to death to be honest in the many years that Self Rostering systems have been in place and not just in our sector either. All of them easy workarounds.

Lets not forget that 'Self Rostering' is ultimately the default premise behind RDS/On Call and has been for ever.

As for training, if we are talking about true maintenance of competencies, how many times do you need to cover risk critical training per year? 4 times... in a year?

Allow grown adults to be in charge of maintaining their own competence instead of being reliant on one or two people on a fixed 2-2-4 to do it for them in terms of planning it as is the norm. Alongside SR it makes things easier if a themed practical training week is designed that people can use to plan in. For eg, Mondays BA/Firefighting, Tuesday Trauma/Resus, Wednesday W@H/Ladders, Thursday RTC/Special Rescue, Friday Pumping/HAZMAT, Saturday Specials, Sunday Mop Up/Mop Out... I've not been on a pump for nearly a decade now but there isn't much not captured within that or am i missing something? So over the course of a year you will meet all your competencies... even those who SR and can't work a particular day due to child/parental caring responsibilities or other employment/interests, well for a couple of days a year they would have to, but as mentioned, they own their MOCs not a C/WM.

I have yet to hear from more than a couple of people per station or hospital ward out of the entire team who would go back to how things where from my many many discussions on SR dating back to 2012.

In terms of the 'inevitably people will want more days than nights' posed question, it is never really an issue. Everyone has 76 days and nights to do and the same amount of weekend shifts to do per month/year - but if, just like now, you want to mutually agree to swap with one another a few shifts here and there which benefits both parties personal or family arrangements and your training and MOCs are still maintained... who cares? You will still have one on ones with your LM, ironically, usually far more meaningful than working with them day in day out to review how you're doing, shift balance performance (which is visible to all anyway) any new skills/courses you require etc.

I wont debate anymore that having far more control in when one works or doesn't is fundamentally bad - I have spent over a decade now, it is the future, but if people still (for some bizarre reason) want to stick to 2 days 2 nights 4 days off and impact every weekend in seven then within SR they still can too.

[Keith]

21 hours ago, Percy said:

it is the future

I thought Garlic Bread was the future.🤣

[OscarTango]

Topic came up on Reddit which jogged my memory: Have GMFRS got their beds back yet?

[Carl]

Yes, probably a year ago now and looking to modernise stations to have individual rooms, although I suspect that will take a good while. 

[StandPipe]

What was the reason for GMFRS getting beds back?

[Noddy]

I’m hoping it’s because someone at the top table stood up and admitted that removing beds was a ridiculous thing to do and apologised for ever ending up in that position…..