The End of Day Crewing Plus?

[Keith]

Something we've discussed in detail before with differing opinions, is the day crewing plus (alternative names also available) duty system. After a successful campaign through the legal system the FBU have got the system declared illegal, details shift system declared illegal

The judgement raises a few questions:

• Does it affect anyone on the forum
• Is it specific to the Service in question or does it apply to all Brigades / Services using similar systems
• How many Brigades / Services use such systems
• Does this herald the end of the systems or will they be replaced with variations on the theme
• Is it goodbye and good riddance

Feel free to discuss and share your experiences positive and negative.

[Jet]

It's certainly the end of DC+ and close proximity crewing (CPC). And good riddance in my opinion. If you're not at home and you are being confined to somewhere that's not your home then you are on duty. 96 hour shifts on duty then becomes illegal and this ruling has proved that. Back to the drawing board then with which Victorian practice to hit us with next...

[Messyshaw]

A victory for common sense - that is, if there is no appeal.

[OscarTango]

Working normal day crewed at a place I don't live at and camping out has changed my perspective on DCP. I used to think what's the harm, but a run of 96 hours straight on duty chained to the area is a strain on home life even without kids. And there's no way around the maths. Even with a 10/20/30% bonus, it's not in step with the amount of time you work. 

50% more time on station? Surely that should be 50% more pay then? Not so. 

[Luminoki]

My concern is that DCP was introduced at a time when cuts were starting to gather momentum. They are still on the horizon til 2020 and now it could appear ALOT of money has just been wasted on implementing a system that is soon to go bye bye ( probably the last time this amount of waste was seen was the regional fire control project )

Many services have got behind DCP and have spent money upgrading stations or just building/renting accomodation for the crews, accomodation that is probably going to end up gathering dust. One neighbouring stations upgrade cost £430,000. Does the FBU think that in these tough times the answer is going to be forcing a money strapped FRS to increase its spending? Can you see Merseyside who are not far off being knackered to pull some notes off the imaginary money tree growing at their HQ.

Also how can you justify a WT station that does 200 shouts a year without making it RDS and thus affecting the local fire cover. There is one in Warks that is DCP, high tourism area but a quite station nonetheless. They struggle to maintain an RDS crew due to problems with that system, is the answer giving the locals detrimental fire cover?

I think the wise choice would have been going after how the shift is implemented with each service. It appears to me that South Yorks require a full 96 hours straight? In H&W you can do blocks of 24 hours, you can do up to 4 of those blocks but i dont know anyone who does them. Also ive yet to meet someone who is forced to do this shift pattern. There was a token resistance when it was introduced, now theres a waiting list for people to do it. I can see it going down like a sack of s**t with those ffs whose pay is about to be cut.  I think @Bob on here works the system so hes probably better placed to give us the feeling fir this.  While i think its a small victory for our working practises ( i have no interest in doing it by the way ) i can see it forcing the hand of senior officers who have to find someway of making further savings i.e. more self rostering being introduced

[HoldFast]

Thing is, the FBU’s main priority is the safety of firefighters and the public. So why allow a shift pattern that jeopardises this to continue? I know of people doing 11 days on the trot without a break, which is totally insane. Why would you even want to do that? If the fire service nationally had the funding it needs we wouldn’t see these quick fix shift patterns that actually mask the problem rather than solve it.

[ChalkAndSheez]

3 hours ago, Luminoki said:

i can see it forcing the hand of senior officers who have to find someway of making further savings i.e. more self rostering being introduced

What is self rostering? How does that work?

[Messyshaw]

The truth is that there are many people that stay at their place of work, not getting home for weeks or months.

North Sea rig workers and those working on ships is another. They may well have to respond from their quarters in an emergency .

But that work pattern is forced upon them by the location of their workplace and NOT to save the local authorities money.

Plus responding to emergencies is not a core function to those industries - where that is the sole role of firefighters. 

If authorities have wasted money, don't blame the FBU or firefighters.  Maybe questions should be asked why they didn't ensure this project was legal.in the first place??

I have been in public service for over 40 years and I accept value for money must be a key driver. But 96hr shifts are not safe, ever - and must be consigned to the history books with sending kids up chimneys 

[Crog]

1 hour ago, ChalkAndSheez said:

What is self rostering? How does that work?

In my service, we have to work an average 11 shifts per month, split between days and nights. We can do 24hr shifts, 5 in a 28 day period.

We input our desired shifts into a spreadsheet 6 weeks in advance and JO’s then work out the shifts for everyone. Any days you don’t want to work, you can put down as not available days.

The shift system itself is pretty good. Biggest issue is not having watches anymore and with the way the shifts work, you might not work with some people on station for weeks/months. 

[Matt]

Lincolnshire might be in a bit of bother with their 8 DCP stations following this, some stations more than others but alot of money has been ploughed into the accommodation side of things on quite a few of the sites.

[CraigFX20]

I've been doing CPC for the last twelve months having been offered a take it or leave it position by my local service when I was looking to transfer in to get nearer home. Despite massive reservations about impact on family life, going against the will of the Union etc I haven't regretted it once.  Yes 96 hours is a long time and that cannot be denied however if managed properly by the watch managment (of which I am one) there are no issues with fatigue.  Fire calls in the night are compensated for by 'catch up' the following morning which depending on the night time jobs can actually result in more recovery than the time spent off station. In extreme circumstances the pump can be taken off the run to allow for sleep/rest however this has never needed to happen and, to my knowledge, I'm at the busiest CPC station in the country doing 1300 calls per year.

As someone who has in the past had to fill skips, clean windows etc between nights, after nights and on my days off I can honestly say that CPC has allowed me to stop doing all that and I have never felt as rested.

In January I decided to change from doing 96 hours in one straight shift to doing 2on20ff3on2off2on3off. This has resulted in my having every other long weekend off which for me has resulted in far better quality time off with the family than I ever had working the 224 system prior to my transfer.

It is worth noting than in my service everyone working the CPC system has done so voluntarily and because they have the option to sign back into the working time directive can leave the system immediately without having to serve a notice period.

I'm a Union member and rep for my station so from that point of view I fully understand that at face value halving the amount of personnel required on a station by implementing a CPC shift system is not great but in order to save 1.6 million (total savings by having four CPC stations) fire cover in the future will now be reduced and lives will be put at stake. In an ideal world each CPC station would go back to 224 which would increase establishment by 56 posts but there is not a chance of this happening. In reality it is highly likely that two pump stations will lose their second pumps and in my opinion at least one station will close. In the short term this is a victory for our Union and I hope that this is the best thing for the job going forward however I am very sceptical as to whether or not in five years time we will be looking back on this as a positive result.

[Percy]

On 29/05/2018 at 15:35, Crog said:

In my service, we have to work an average 11 shifts per month, split between days and nights. We can do 24hr shifts, 5 in a 28 day period.

We input our desired shifts into a spreadsheet 6 weeks in advance and JO’s then work out the shifts for everyone. Any days you don’t want to work, you can put down as not available days.

The shift system itself is pretty good. Biggest issue is not having watches anymore and with the way the shifts work, you might not work with some people on station for weeks/months. 

That's really good, although an 8 week forward looking rota is probably easier for people and on the spreadsheet.

You do have 'Watches' as in people are allocated to certain WC's for line management purposes but obviously you dont have to track the same shifts as each other all the time.

I could do a degree (?) on Shift Systems and whilst there are around 20 models we could adopt there are just two types of rota system when all is said and done.

1) the organisation tell the employees when to work and when not to.

2) the employees let the organisation know when it can/wants to work and when it can't.

Which is the one which reduces STS in every sector it's utilised? 

Which is the one which provides more options and flexibility for staff (a key benchmark for HMICFRS moving forward) which has been requested in the Bain, Knight and Thomas reviews?

Self rostering is nothing new anyway... RDS/On Call works on this premise as does most Whole time Watches who can control their own annual leave rather than have the controlled centrally imposed versions.

What the individual is saying here is "I want to be off on this date to this date" or "I am not available for work".

Self Rostering is the same premise but it's done throught the year rather than in September or October just for Annuals the following year.

You've done OK if you only have to do 11 shifts per month as that's just 132 shifts. You are salaried for 151.5 after AL and LS.

It should be approx 12.6 per month, 8.8 shifts during the week per person 3.8 weekend shifts per person. (151.2).

[Dyson]

i wonder if this affects FDS officers, the ones who work out of stations, not the ones who work from home? 

[Crog]

It all averages out. We also have bank days for training and covering sickness, etc. 

Being new, I don’t have long service, so have to do 69 days and 69 nights plus 17.5 bank days by the years end. Generally alternate months with 11 one, 12 next, but in August I’m down for 13 shifts. As long as our counts are zero by year end and pumps are on the run, service seems content.

[Percy]

Yeah that’s more like it... 69x2+17.5=152.5 which is almost the same as the figure I quoted that should be worked for salary, 151.5. Not sure where the extra day comes from though, but I have seen this number used in other FRS too.

Incidentally, the maximum number of shifts that can be worked within the traditional 2-2-4 model is 146.

[StandPipe]

5 years on from this feed and my brigade still has stations working CPC/DC+, although their own version which is;

4x 11 hour day shifts on duty (07:30-18:30), followed by 4x days off duty. 
Night time cover must be provided for the entire four days, no booking off etc. This is 18:30-07:30, finishing at 07:30 on your first day off. 
It is a 5 minute response at night, meaning between 18:30-07:30, you can go anywhere you want (some go home, some stay in service provided accommodation which is off site), basically as long as you are the station within 5 mins you’re free.
20% enhancement, time for time (any nighttime shouts we get the time back the next day, e.g. a call at 21:00 for 2 hours means we wouldn’t have to be in work until 09:30 the next day). 

I’m just intrigued on people’s opinion on this shift system. I certainly have my opinion and there are also flaws and cracks which I haven’t mentioned, but on the whole it would be interesting to hear.

[Navigator]

Lancs still have it but it's being phased out now, with a few DCP stations going back to 224 and a few moving to flexi day crewing where you are required to live within 5 minutes from station and respond at night from home. 

I absolutely love DCP, the main benefits for me are the flexibility, and of course the 33% salary uplift which softened the blow of the massive pay cut when I joined the service. 

Bad points would be when it's busy it's pretty awful, when you're up 5 or 6 times in a night no amount of "recovery" the next day quite makes up for it, given that "recovery" is often interrupted itself. 

Not long ago we were out all night from 11pm to about 7am, got back and got turned out again whilst sorting the sets out. Ended up on recovery until 8pm but it's not quality recovery time in that situation. Manageable over a 24 hour period but can quickly become excessively fatigued over 3/4 day DCP tours.

Self rostered 224 with the entirely voluntary option of a 24 hour shift seems the way forward but the FBU seem set against it. 

[C_Iain]

@StandPipe I work a pretty much identical duty system and I think it’s great. Granted, it’s not for everyone, but everyone that works the system with us likes it and don’t want to see any changes. The guys that live in the station areas enjoy being at home every night and the ones like me who travel long distances to work enjoy not having to find somewhere to bed down for 4 days a week.

The system seems to become flawed when it’s used to downgrade busy WT stations. DC+/CPC is really for stations that are at the lower end of call volume for WT, but still too busy and/or too high-risk to be RDS alone. If your station is regularly turning out 2 or 3 times a night, then it should probably be running 2/2/4. 

In the post-covid world, people have gotten used to having more flexibility and options when it comes to their working patterns. If the fire service is serious about wanting to attract the best people from the widest possible talent pool, the sector should probably be looking at more working patterns, not less.

[Messyshaw]

On 04/06/2023 at 09:55, StandPipe said:

..... basically as long as you are the station within 5 mins you’re free.

Jesus! You have an odd definition of what constitutes 'freedom'. 

The firm saves money, the firefighters make money, so it sound perfect

But zoom out and look at the bigger picture and I still can't see how such long continuous periods on duty or on call constitutes a safe system of work

Its crap for those with a family and a promotion blocker

It just DC on the cheap whatever way to look at it. If I am wrong, convince me otherwise as i haven't worked it and am happy to be educated 

[Rory-495]

Honestly to me it sounds dreadful. I work my days and nights and when my shift finishes I can leave. I just hope and pray WMFS never go to it!

[Luminoki]

Im not ashamed to admit i would jump at this, due to my own selfish reasons ( not money ) having spoken to a number of people it seems that no one is forced to go onto this and if so, there is no shortage of people willing to take their spot. Also its the risk you take for applying to certain services, you apply knowing that you may get a posting not to your liking
 

The issue is that what happens if a Day Crewing station is in an area where the house prices hover around the 400k mark or people cant relocate their families for whatever reason. I am a proud FBU member but lets not forget the ruling was brought by the FBU using ONE SERVICE as an example on how they ran DCP, which was disproven by a member on this forum

[StandPipe]

On 05/06/2023 at 10:05, Messyshaw said:

Jesus! You have an odd definition of what constitutes 'freedom'. 

Poor wording on my behalf, I just meant the crews working the system aren’t tied up to staying on station like I know some brigades enforce/enforced.

I don’t work the system, and I also don’t agree with it as I believe it’s cheap fire cover with huge flaws. That being said, the stations that do work it have transfer lists out the door. 

[Percy]

On 04/06/2023 at 10:34, Navigator said:

Self rostered 224 

That’s an oxymoron.

[Vema11]

On 04/06/2023 at 10:34, Navigator said:

Self rostered 224 with the entirely voluntary option of a 24 hour shift seems the way forward but the FBU seem set against it. 

Couldn’t agree more! That would benefit a lot of firefighters and the service so hopefully the FBU come around to the idea. 

I like working at busy stations too much to go day crewing, but I like the idea of flexible self rostering. 

[Percy]

Can someone please explain the terms ‘flexible self rostering’ or ‘self rostered’ 224.

Do these differ from ‘normal’ self rostering? 🤔