MOD FRS Sell Off Latest

[Br9mp81]

Great VFM only £400 million wasted so far.

[Messyshaw]

I reckon the Carillion collapse and the undereported chaos that has caused to vital public services has Govt depts feeling a bit vulnerable when it comes to dishing out new contracts. 

The whole idea of PFIs is to provide a job for ministers to go to when their political career is over. But to risk the entire venture crashing thereby damaging your political reputation and retirement plans, is scaring some of the politicians ?

[HB12]

Just to people up to date. Capita has been awarded the contract. 

[OscarTango]

Beat me to it. All hail our new overlords.....

[HB12]

I’m surprised it’s not already on here. News broke yesterday. Yeah should be interesting. 

[Br9mp81]

There is only one way they will make money, by cutting the workforce or cutting T&Cs,  the DFRMO white shirts have got want they wanted for years a fire service without the inconvenience of fiirefighters

[HB12]

I think we are looking at changes of stations as well as personnel. 

[Br9mp81]

No not even the MOD are daft enough to sign a contract for fire cover and then let the contractor close stations to save money, oh! hang on a minute. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Carl
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[HB12]

Yeah they’d never do that. 

[Messyshaw]

So assuming you MoD/DFRMO guys will have your T&Cs tuped over to Crapita, how does this effect your pension?

Are there any other potential negatives if you (presumably) lose your Crown Servant status? (especially in relation to being prosecuted?)

Sounds a bit scary to me!!

[Br9mp81]

DFRMO are part of the CS pension scheme, which to be honest is not that good compered to what it was. The unions are still fighting the abatement to pay that was a rip off.

AFSI|A tupe lasts a year and a day so after that who knows, as I very respected ACFO  told us years ago the only saving is the wage bill.

IMHO this is not a good thing, how will the contractors be able to use the RAF firefighters for example, use them to cut overtime payments etc.

IMHO the rank and file of DFRMO many of who in past years did tours in the Balkans, middle east, falklands and NI have every right  to feel disappointed at the result

[Messyshaw]

1 hour ago, Br9mp81 said:

IMHO the rank and file of DFRMO many of who in past years did tours in the Balkans, middle east, falklands and NI have every right  to feel disappointed at the result

You are so right. I have a mate who served in Iraq for DFRMO who did some proper heroic work on the front line at extreme risk - with one headline grabbing incident that was a near death experience, but sadly cannot be discussed here.

This is firefighting, but not as most firefighters know it, and a disgrace they've been sold off to the highest bidder.

Glad to hear the CS Pension still applies though

[Br9mp81]

I'm sure that they will leave the CS pension, they won't be CS anymore,

I think the above show just how much HMG thinks of its staff!

According to FT a report rated Capita 10/10 risk of going tits up, Serco 8/10, but its only taxpayers money!

[Gromitt]

The CS pensions will remain as they currently are.

[Br9mp81]

Are you sure, your be working for a private company the whole idea of selling things off is to cut the CS pension bill not keep it going

Edited June 20, 2018 by Keith
Quote from post above removed

[Gromitt]

Whichever bidder won the contract, it was authorised that they would be given special dispensation to pay into the CS pension.

[Messyshaw]

I have no knowledge of the background to this case, but I have some life/work experience which has shown me if a Govt, employer or person in control wants you to quietly accept something that is unacceptable, unpalatable or otherwise unwelcome, one ploy is to bring the change in via phases.

This type of deception is commonplace in politics and there's fewer more political hot potatoes than PFI & outsourcing. I hope I am wrong and in 10 years time everything will be as now. But all that's needed is a Crapita profit warning or Crapita are taken over by Atkins or Mitie etc, and you can imagine the spin.

"To enable us to honour this contract, we have had to make savings which involves rationalising the DFRMO pension arrangements. The new scheme will still provide generous payments which are in the top 25% of the upper quartile of pension schemes........blah blah blah"

Good luck

[Br9mp81]

The F T paper has today reported that the losing bidder has accepted a payment to allow the winner to start the contract, however the losing bidder will still be taking the MOD to court.

So every ones a winner bar the work force and the taxpayer.

DFRMO today, LAFS in the near future i reckon.

[Messyshaw]

4 hours ago, Br9mp81 said:

DFRMO today, LAFS in the near future i reckon.

I could not agree more. With no unions to complain, DFRMO was a good place for Her Majs Govt to trial privatisation and iron out any creases.

They may well be back and will probably start with a small cash strapped County FRS.

I know we don't do politics here, but I hope that FBU members will act as one if this rears its ugly head

[Luminoki]

Didnt that already happen with Cleveland FRS’s back office a few years ago?

[Keith]

7 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

I know we don't do politics here, but I hope that FBU members will act as one if this rears its ugly head

I think we might have to make an exception if this does happen Messy.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Can’t see the LA being privatised. I can see us being in shared buildings with the ambo & police as standard in future though. 

[Messyshaw]

@TrainHardFightEasy. Why can't you see this happening?

Privatisation has been around now for many years and offers numerous advantages to the service provider, in particular budget planning in terms of the PFI fee is similar to a direct debit - predictable and reliable. The fire service across the UK are adopting private contact. The LFB employ Firefighters directly and operate most of  their buildings, but appliances, kit, uniform, medical services and training is all privatised. Why not the rest including Ops

Control and Fire Safety are perhaps the most vulnerable for widespread change, but unless there is  some political shift in fiscal policy (maybe more Carillion type PFI collapses or a left wing Labour Govt), privatisation is here to stay

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan as the PFI companies have to bid low to win the contract and then cut corners throughout the life of that contract to make a profit. This includes pay, terms and conditions of their employees. I reckon the only thing stopping widespread privatising of the LA fire service is the huge costs of FF pensions. I am not sure how pensions are being dealt with at DFRMO, but its clear it is not insurmountable.

Can you imagine being a proud member of the XXXX Fire & Rescue Service on the Friday and an employee of Interserve on the Saturday with lower pay and less leave etc? Before you say "They can't do that" - they can. Have a look here as its happened to 10s of thousands of public employees http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1655

IMO PFI and similar arrangements do not work

I haved work in numerous Govt, NHS and Local Authority buildings that are owned and operated by PFI contracts. They are all in a complete chaotic mess without exception. In terms of fire safety, its not unusual for maintenance and admin staffing levels to be 33+% below the contracted amount. The staff shortages simply cannot sustain the contract requirements and cause slippages in maintenance schedules and chaotic paperwork systems that lead to risk critical failures of fire safety infrastructure. 

Staff are paid a pittance and Ts&Cs have been cut . So the the staff who leave often cannot be replaced. It really is an epidemic out there and something will go wrong before changes to the PFI arrangements are pushed through. Maybe a hospital fire, a fatal at a school or a flagship Govt building burning down. The agency responsible for enforcing fire safety in Govt Buildings - CPFIG - are more than aware of this widespread chaos and are targeting this area during audits.

I hope you are right and privatisation stays where it is now, but I wouldn't put money on it 

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Messy all very valid points. However, we have one of the strongest unions in the UK & secondly the public for the most part actually like us. I think there would be uproar if the operations side of the job was privatised. The government know this so streamlining the 3 services together to save cash is the next best option. 

[Br9mp81]

Yeah good luck with that one, you can just image the HMG spin " XYZ .co have  a proved track record in fire and rescue, having supported the armed forces at home and on ops and safeguarded the nations QRA responce and CASD nuclear deterant , and many other high risk camps and depots at home and overseas.

What could go wrong!

Edited May 10, 2019 by Carl
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