Close Proximity Crewing

[ChalkAndSheez]

Hello everyone,

I am not currently a serving firefighter, however while browsing some topics on the FBU website I came across something called Close Proximity Crewing, or Day Crewing Plus.

Can someone please explain what this is, and why there appears to be resistance towards it?

[Jet]

In a nutshell, it is where firefighters work 4 day shifts in a row, usually 9-6. But in between those shifts they respond from either their own homes within 4 minutes of the station or from from travelodge style accommodation on the station premises. 

Its controversial because you are effectively on duty for 96 straight hours and attendance times at night obviously suffer. 

[HoldFast]

There are some that do it for even longer than that. In Cheshire you can be on duty for 11 days straight before you have to have a day off... no thanks.

[ChalkAndSheez]

Oh so this is something that's actually happening then? I just assumed from what I had read that the resistance had lead to it's implementation being scrapped.

To be honest although I've no personal experience of it, Bedfordshire's system of 24hrs on 72hrs off seems like the best solution for 24hr cover. Everyone has their own bedroom, and it's a great way to develop cohesion with your watch by spending that much time together, and also allows you to spend a massive amount of time with your family during off days.

Are more services looking to implement 24hr shifts, or are they going to move to CPC?

[Noddy]

How is day crewing plus different to a 24 hour shift if during the 24 hour shift you get to sleep in your own bedroom? Is it not the same thing? 

[TandA]

I thought Responding from your own home within 4 minutes at night was standard daycrewing.  

[Messyshaw]

42 minutes ago, Noddy said:

How is day crewing plus different to a 24 hour shift if during the 24 hour shift you get to sleep in your own bedroom? Is it not the same thing? 

Er, you might not be in your own home? (if you 'live' in one of these prison block/travelodge buildings).

Whilst many young men & women might find this a good little earner, young people get older and stuff like kids and families come along. Its at this point, being away from home for 96 hours a week is unacceptable. I have heard of schemes which 'allow' effectively visiting rights for family during the stand down. 

Do not even begin to tell me about the 1000s who work 100s of miles from their base station and stay up for the week. This is a matter of personal choice which that individual can change and not a condition of service.

I believe day crewing plus is a step backwards, divisive and plain wrong: So convince me I am wrong

 

[Noddy]

I didn’t mean at home messy ?

[Jet]

12 hours ago, ChalkAndSheez said:

and it's a great way to develop cohesion with your watch by spending that much time together

I think exactly the opposite 

There’s a significant difference between being day crew plus and being on a 24 hour shift. For one a 24 hour shift won’t necessarily mean individual rooms, you would likely still be in a dorm if that’s the current setup of the station. And your stand down period would only be the current 12-7 period, not a solid 15 hours from 6pm until 9am. Maybe someone from Beds will correct me. Either way I think 24 on, 3 off sounds like a much better system. Knowing I only have to make one journey into work every four days is a winner for me.

[OscarTango]

Messy is quite right about the difference between staying around for your four on (with the perks or hassles that goes with it), and actually making them a condition of service which you have no choice in. 

I'm doing a three month wholetime contract at my local WT station which is day crewed and although its only ten minutes away from my home il still be having to stay in a nearby digs.

The plus side is that self rostering means that it is divided into 24 hours blocks (on station and delayed response) planned the month in advance. It doesn't necessarily have to be 96 hours straight away from home. If day crewing plus was to become more widespread then that sort of flexibility should be built in imo.

Or we could just put all wholetime on 24/72 off. Job jobbed

[Jet]

It’s a no brainier for me (24/72). I know there will be some for which it doesn’t suit at all, but the way I see it, what’s an extra 4/5 hours at the station before stand down period and then in the morning you’re finished for three days.

Also from a brigade perspective, how many have been desperate to get 12 hour shifts in? Well what’s 24 divided by 2?? It’s just two 12 hours shifts back to back.

[OscarTango]

All of our wholetime migrated to self rostering by the beginning of this year. On the shift stations 24s are very popular, literally just cutting and shutting a day and a night shift together. They say they feel like they are never at work.

That said there is a welfare element to be considered with busier stations, especially if EMR makes a comeback and pushes pump movements up a lot, but nothing insurmountable I feel.

[Jet]

There are plenty of fire stations around the world, many much busier than the average UK W/T station, that make 24 hr shifts work. Why not use something that has been tried and tested for decades elsewhere?

[Messyshaw]

I am not sure that comparing the UK with those 'around the world' is a valid argument

There are all sorts of industries that work differently abroad, especially when they are not tied down by 'nonsense' such as health & safety, minimum wages and legal welfare considerations. Consider the Olympic Village constructions sites across the world. It makes sense as construction site risks are broadly comparable with fire ground risks. At Olympic sites, there are similar risks presented in each country, but 11 workers died in Brazil and 6 are officially recognised as dying in China (although it was probably more). The death toll at London 2012? = Nil!

Over 100 years, MPs, campaigners and unions have fought hard for a safe working environment in the UK. There's still a long way to go before the workplace safety is where it could be, but to bring back long 24hr shifts and hope there is time in that shift for staff to rest - or accept on occasions they might not rest sufficiently despite the need to wear BA or drive when tired after 23.5 hours of work- or to be content that staff may need to drive 150 miles home at the end of the shift whilst exhausted, is incredibly short win thinking. These conditions of work are going backwards and undoing lots of hard fought rights.

[Jet]

Messy I was thinking more along the lines of our North American counterparts where although given they might not have such stringent health and safety as us, they are not exactly sacrificing workers for the ‘greater good’ or whatever.

For me there’s not much argument in saying that after 24 hours you will be too chin-strapped to do anything. I get up at 7am the day of my first night shift and spend the day looking after my son and doing errands with him in tow which personally I find more exhausting than a day at the fire station. Then I go to work and do a night shift and if I’m up all night on a job, so be it.

[Keith]

Think we need to be careful here not to mix up the different shift patterns in all this.  Going back to the original post regarding close proximity crewing or day crew plus, big thing to remember here is, where a station used to have 4 watches it now only has 2, which in blunt terms means half the jobs have gone.

Regarding 24 hour shifts it's the terms and conditions that are tested, as you still need 4 watches. 

The big draw of the 12/12 which brigades are keen on, is it offers a relatively easy way of reducing the number of pumps at night.

If you think of all t the different changes in patterns and starting hours etc that have been introduced over the last number of years have they really been an improvement over the traditional 2,2,4 09.00 - 1800, 18.00 - 09.00?

[Jet]

No I suppose not Keith. But we live in a culture of change for change’s sake.

“What did you change in the last place you worked?”

”Nothing, everything worked fine, everyone was happy so I didn’t change anything.”

“Sorry, you’re not what we’re looking for”.

[Crog]

33 minutes ago, Keith said:

Regarding 24 hour shifts it's the terms and conditions that are tested, as you still need 4 watches. 

Not strictly true. As oscartango states, we do flexible rostering here and can do 24’s. We have no watches at all.

[Bob]

There is a previous thread on Day crewing plus on which I ended up having some heated debates.

I am not willing to tread there again but having done 6 years DCP and previously 10 years of 2/2/4 I personally preferred DCP.

Many Pros and cons to each and all dependant upon your personal circumstances but like anything else it does have a shelf life.

If you want any further info on my thoughts/experiences its a PM I am afraid

Rob

[Firefant]

I work at Beds. The shift pattern is great!  24 on can become a long shift if you’re busy. We have our own rooms and have stand down from 00:00 until 07:00. I found the 2/2/4 shift better for cohesion and training really but for work life balance the current system is brilliant. 

Our day starts at 09:00. We tend to drill/fire safety etc until about 18:00. Then gym, supper and pdrpro/learnpro. If you have any other questions about it let me know 

[Noddy]

What happens between 0700 and 0900 then? 

[Gwentiori]

Morning nap? ?

[Jet]

.

[Ian]

On 3/6/2018 at 16:28, Keith said:

If you think of all t the different changes in patterns and starting hours etc that have been introduced over the last number of years have they really been an improvement over the traditional 2,2,4 09.00 - 1800, 18.00 - 09.00?

I disagree Im afraid Keith. The starting time of 09:00 is a nonsensense in my opinion. Im not sure where you live but try getting anywhere in the South (especially London) for 9am. The travel network is impossible! A better option IMHO would be 07:30 start and finish either in 12's or 24's

On 3/6/2018 at 16:39, Jamiejet said:

No I suppose not Keith. But we live in a culture of change for change’s sake.

 

Again I disagree...sorry.

20 years ago when I joined I was informed by my then LFF that we would soon lose 2 pump stations, the beds and 09:00-18:00. Roll forward 20 years and nothing has changed yet the world around us has!

We are going to be left behind if we don't play our part in change, Co-ro, PCC's, HMICFRS, NFCC, LGA professional standards body are all pushing and pulling to change and for us not to be left behind.

And before you all jump on me and say that I have had a chip inserted in my bum, I would also defend our collaborative bargaining too. The Fire service needs to extend its blue light footprint BUT with the right funding, pay, direction, leadership........I'm not convinced that we have evolved or changed as much as we think?

I do expect push-back 

[Dyson]

Haha Ian, no push back from me but I do think we overthink and change things on trend, which isn’t good leadership. 

If 9 works as changeover time for the troops then leave it ? They’ve been messed about enough? Do we have to obsessively account for everything they do every moment of the shift ? If 9 isn’t working for them, then we change it ?

For me....24/72 is the best shift, for a thousand reasons.  2,2,4 is also goid though.