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LFB Rank System

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Now it was mooted that when the talk was of Wm(A)'s coming to FRU stations, they'd be coming as additional  to make up for us getting a bod nicked off the FRU ridership. If that's the case, we'll be looking at StnO, SubO and 2x LFF for a PL/FRU station....

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I might just go and blow the dust off my Station Officer Examination Certificate that I achieved all those years ago.... quite the memento potentially! 

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On 17 April 2017 at 20:41, Dan J said:

Interesting that LFB have so many variations on the role system.

We kept it simple. Firefighter, Crew Commander, Watch Commander, Station Commander, Group Commander, Area Commander, Deputy Chief, Chief.

Although it took some getting used to rank to role, I see no real benefit in going back now. 

Scotland works this way, apart from having Deputy ACOs and ACOs before the Dep. flattened out the A/B divide last year to arrive at this point. 

Currently Managers but I know the FBU are fighting for Commanders to make a return, and also white shirts for Watch Comanager and above. All the important stuff ............

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As a newly promoted WMA, will be interesting to see how this goes,I've kept me CMs lid, I came from an FRU station so I have absolutely no problem going back as a Sub O, I quite miss the variety anyway.  But extremely enjoy the WM role, be great if I can get a stab at a Stn O, I'll throw my name in if I can, do whatever process required and go from there, either way, it will provide much better resilience in terms of on the fire ground and hopefully reduce standbys somewhat.  As a former CM+, was out everyday all over the place but the experience was invaluable!  ??

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On 16/04/2017 at 00:57, Steve said:

Do you think we could put big wheels on the 45ft ladder to make it easier to move around? How about wearing a belt with a useful small axe in a pouch at your side??? Nah...it'd never catch on. ^_^

Now your talking Steve, can I have a bardic instead of a torch?

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On 15/04/2017 at 14:45, Steve M said:

Current LFB ranks/roles in order up to SM, brace yourself...... :S


FF(D)   (firefighter on development)

FF   (competent firefighter)

FF^   (firefighter can act up to T/CM, only outdutys within 7.5miles of base stn)

FF+  (firefighter can act to T/CM, outdutys any where in LFB)

T/CM  (firefighter acting up to temp crew manager)

CM(D)  (crew manger on development)

CM(S)  (crew manager specialist, i.e. Been non op, now on the run, ops evidence required for development)

CM  (competent crew manager)

CM+  (crew manager plus.  Will act up to T/WM, outduty to ride OIC at a station for a shift)

T/WM  (temp watch manager)

WM(D)  (watch manager on development)

WM(S)  (watch manager specialist, i.e. Been non op, now on the run, ops required for development)

WM(A)  (OIC, one appliance station)

WM(B)  (OIC, multi appliance station)

Clear isn't it...... O.o :/ 


You can now see the reasoning for bringing back LFF, SUB.O and STN.O, it worked for many years ;)

I cannot believe how the LFB have got themselves in such an almighty mess

The rank to role was all about reducing duplication. Someone with a bigger salary than me worked out there were 4 ranks on a station, but only 3 roles.

Now there's 10!!!  How many LFB managers does it take to change a lightbulb? (Get your sliderules and scientific calculators out to work that number out)

I am also intrigued at the : FF^   (firefighter can act up to T/CM, only outdutys within 7.5miles of base stn). What the hell is that all about? Is s/he suddenly not competent if they are sitting having a cuppa at a station 8 miles away? What's the rationale of that rule? Why 7.5 miles?

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1 hour ago, Messyshaw said:

I cannot believe how the LFB have got themselves in such an almighty mess


Really?? I'm not at all surprised with many long screwdrivers of interference coming from all angles of micro-management. Half of this was because the FBU were rightly playing hardball with 'new requirements' from a management regime being directed by a political leadership who essentially hated us. So every simple 'request' or 'fix' with zero goodwill about, required complex negotiations and another ridiculous layer wedged in.

Now we are in a new regime of politics and a much friendlier industrial relations landscape, we can (hopefully) start to do business properly again.

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i hope this comes off, and spreads across to where i am.

Ill be a Sub Officer again :) or will i ?  do i get awarded with a hefty pay cut? ( I'm not hoping for a pay cut )

And yeah id also like to know what that 7 mile thing is all about?

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The 7.5 mile thing is/was the maximum distance for a direct standby (where you can be sent to standby but have to arrive by change of watch, travelling in your own time). Over that distance staff would report at their base and go in duty time.

it was nothing to do with the competency of individuals over a certain distance, was more a measure to reassure people thinking of doing it that they wouldn't be sent to the far reaches of the brigade covering CM shortages.

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I can't see this being voted for, after all who will vote for a perceived demotion?

There are far more A's than B's and FF's aren't impacted at this time. 

If you were an A would you vote to lose fireground control past a 4PF  ?

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  • 5 weeks later...


From the LFB twitter page......

"We've listened to our staff & will now begin the process of a new watch structure & officer roles. It will take time to fully implement."

Apparantly the LFB & FBU have come to an agreement following a vote by the FBU.

As above, no idea as to when this will be implemented.  LFF, SUB.O and STN.O coming back....... hook ladders next ?

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On 23/07/2017 at 10:12, MDT said:

I can't see this being voted for, after all who will vote for a perceived demotion?

There are far more A's than B's and FF's aren't impacted at this time. 

If you were an A would you vote to lose fireground control past a 4PF  ?

Yeah! What do I know anyway?!

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I thought it wouldn't get voted in either!

Personally I think it's a step back (sorry), I appreciate there is an issue with not enough CM+ to keep stations on the run etc.  By bringing the Sub Officer back, this will obviously rectify this shortfall.

However, me as an example, I am a CM at a two appliance station.  We have a WM and two CM's on each watch.  This reverts to Stn.O and two LFf's. The new rank structure for my station will be Stn.O, Sub.O and a LFf.

Me and the other CM can apply for the Sub.O round, hopefully pass and hopefully one of us will stay on our watch as the Sub.  However, this is not guaranteed.  Someone who scores higher and has my station on their list, will be offered the Sub vacancy.  Or if we don't go for the Sub round, one of us will be compulsory moved to another station as a LFf and a Sub transferred in.  People being compulsory moved is a horrible process.

I hope you can appreciate my concerns.  I really do appreciate that the LFf, Sub.O and Stn.O worked back in the day, I was in the job when it did.  I agree something has to be done to keep trucks on the run, is this the answer?

How do other Brigades cope with officer shortages?  Surely it's not just us?

I apologise in advance, I expect the odd negative reply, this is just my own personal opinion, thank you.

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The only details I have read have been aimed at station staff.  Not sure re our control or fire safety colleagues etc.

There will be more details to follow, regarding this move.  This won't happen over night, I should imagine more next year??

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Stupid question, but I wasn't in before the current structure, how are Station Officer and Sub Officer abbreviated on boards and NRB's and such like. Cheers

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Steve M, most other services don't have the "intricasies " that LFB have, remember most of our pumps ride ride 4 and a level 1 officer puts that pump on the run, regardless of either watch or crew commander status, (if your qualified to act up then your qualified and deemed safe more importantly !)also regardless of where that is. Ultimately no officer = pump off the run !?

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Thanks Becile.

In your Brigade, if a station/apppliance has no officer for a shift, will that appliance or station be off the run then?  Do you not send out any spare (if any) CM's to cover?

Edited by Carl
Quote removed as there is no need to quote the previous post.
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Yes but all the stations are totally autonomous and look after themselves.and should cover it well in advance , (they send a text out to off duty station staff  who can cover it for OT or additional shift which can be claimed back when crewing allows.).and we don't ride with any spares! Not got that luxury! We may move officers about if needed, but if the figures are too low across the service the pump comes off the run !

Sorry Mods...off topic !

Edited by Carl
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  • 2 months later...
On 15/04/2017 at 21:38, TandA said:

Essex are finally going rank to role imminently, just in time for others to reverse the direction.  Sounds most unlike us!   We are going for all WMBs though, no WMAs etc anywhere as far as I am told.  I have no idea how the rank markings are being implemented, but possibly it will give me an unearned white hat.  

Essex are Finally moving to Roles as of 9am Nov 1st.  Strangely it leaves me feeling somewhat deflated and a bit of a fraud as yes I do get an unearned white hat and impellers.

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