Steve M Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 As the title says, looks like the LFB are going full circle with the rank structure! LFf, Sub.O and Stn.O could be returning after 12 years of CM, WM(A) and WM(B) and various other ranks/roles in between (CM+ etc). Before you ask, it's not confirmed yet, however talks are on going with management, FBU and the troops on the ground. Watch this space! Not sure how it's going to be implemented, lots of rumours, but as I said, nothing confirmed yet. Any thoughts guys..... Link to comment
Jet Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 I was obviously aware of the rumours and talk that there was going to be change to the rank structure but I wasn't expecting this at all. Its all up in the air it seems with regards to who is going to be what when it changes but it's definitely a step in the right direction. I thought it was ridiculous that considering the role system was to make everyone's job title clearer and more relevant, you have Watch and Station Managers that don't and never have actually managed a watch/station. I'm also impressed that the powers that be have taken the step to recognise that such a move hasn't worked out as planned and weren't afraid to go backwards as opposed to dressing up some identical scheme as 'moving forward' or some other corporate management buzz-phrase. Link to comment
Carl Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 I hope this is true and it ends up happening and more so rolled out to all FRS's. We were lucky in the fact we soon got rid of the WMAs a good while back and just had the CM and WM without the As and Bs. Fingers crossed. A good move in my opinion. Link to comment
Becile Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 We dropped the manager bit a few years back and went back to commanders Link to comment
Keith Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 We actually used the word commander instead of manager from the start, but had all the roles and the problems with the A & B's, so a return to a proper Rank structure would be a good move. Link to comment
Steve Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 The issue we have got is the visual 'demotion' of WM(A)'s and CM's... as well as what to do with all of the CM*, CM+, Ff+ and all the other sticking plaster nonsense we've built up over a decade and a bit. Obviously the WM(A)'s will go back to yellow hats and two stripes like a CM and the CM's will go to a single stripe. No great shakes for those of us who remember that system and how effective the old Lff's and Sub O's were, but for the new people, I feel they'll need some love. Sadly they were going to include SM & GM but have decided against it as we only have the B grade in both roles so there is noting to simplify. A shame as everyone will have their old titles back (AM's changed to Deputy Assistant Commissioner very quickly after R2R in LFB... about a year I think). I was a 3rd year ADO so got assimilated into SM with protected pay which was better that GM development. But when I did get promoted in 2010 it was to GM, it would be nice to be a DO before I retire. 1 Link to comment
Cashybai Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 The biggest bug bear it'll sort out for me is the Wm(a)/Wm(b) seniority on the fireground. At least at a glance you can tell a SubO/ SubO acting up to StnO .The whole rank structure mullarkey has been a cluster as far as I'm concerned, 4 roles on the fireground and twice as many nominally donated persons (diamond ff/ ff/ ff+/ cm(d)/ cm/ cm+/ cm*/ wm(a)d/ wm(a)/ wm(b)d/ wm(b) if I've remembered them all.....) Link to comment
Becile Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Jeez cashy .....that's crazy...I seem to remember a phrase that has stood me in good stead all these years.."keep it simple stupid" Link to comment
LiamG Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Cashybai said: The biggest bug bear it'll sort out for me is the Wm(a)/Wm(b) seniority on the fireground. At least at a glance you can tell a SubO/ SubO acting up to StnO .The whole rank structure mullarkey has been a cluster as far as I'm concerned, 4 roles on the fireground and twice as many nominally donated persons (diamond ff/ ff/ ff+/ cm(d)/ cm/ cm+/ cm*/ wm(a)d/ wm(a)/ wm(b)d/ wm(b) if I've remembered them all.....) Don't forget FF^... ? Link to comment
Steve M Posted April 15, 2017 Author Share Posted April 15, 2017 Current LFB ranks/roles in order up to SM, brace yourself...... FF(D) (firefighter on development) FF (competent firefighter) FF^ (firefighter can act up to T/CM, only outdutys within 7.5miles of base stn) FF+ (firefighter can act to T/CM, outdutys any where in LFB) T/CM (firefighter acting up to temp crew manager) CM(D) (crew manger on development) CM(S) (crew manager specialist, i.e. Been non op, now on the run, ops evidence required for development) CM (competent crew manager) CM+ (crew manager plus. Will act up to T/WM, outduty to ride OIC at a station for a shift) T/WM (temp watch manager) WM(D) (watch manager on development) WM(S) (watch manager specialist, i.e. Been non op, now on the run, ops required for development) WM(A) (OIC, one appliance station) WM(B) (OIC, multi appliance station) Clear isn't it...... You can now see the reasoning for bringing back LFF, SUB.O and STN.O, it worked for many years 1 Link to comment
Dyson Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Amazing, but i like it. Essex never changed over so it will save them a job 1 Link to comment
TandA Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Essex are finally going rank to role imminently, just in time for others to reverse the direction. Sounds most unlike us! We are going for all WMBs though, no WMAs etc anywhere as far as I am told. I have no idea how the rank markings are being implemented, but possibly it will give me an unearned white hat. At the same time, we are trying to align WT and RDS job descriptions for the roles and also station management structures across RDS and WT so I should end up with same amount of officer cover on my station as a WT watch has on an equivalent station in terms of appliances. Could be interesting to see how that will work given the fact they will need to factor in not just officer numbers but also contracted hours of cover. Link to comment
Dyson Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Amazing - you couldn't write this stuff! I love the fire service, everything just goes around in circles decade after decade 1 1 Link to comment
Steve Posted April 15, 2017 Share Posted April 15, 2017 Do you think we could put big wheels on the 45ft ladder to make it easier to move around? How about wearing a belt with a useful small axe in a pouch at your side??? Nah...it'd never catch on. 1 1 Link to comment
Dyson Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 Yes, Steve, you joke, but i was saying with the same tongue in cheek until now, why don't we have examinations for people to prove technical knowledge on promotion, and hey what about a clear rank system, so you instantly recognise who's who? Exams are back (in my FRS) and now this This comes after the attempted failed introduction of the CARPS recently in some FRS's, which had failed in the 70's Link to comment
Messyshaw Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 22 hours ago, Steve M said: Current LFB ranks/roles in order up to SM, brace yourself...... FF(D) (firefighter on development) FF (competent firefighter) FF^ (firefighter can act up to T/CM, only outdutys within 7.5miles of base stn) FF+ (firefighter can act to T/CM, outdutys any where in LFB) T/CM (firefighter acting up to temp crew manager) CM(D) (crew manger on development) CM(S) (crew manager specialist, i.e. Been non op, now on the run, ops evidence required for development) CM (competent crew manager) CM+ (crew manager plus. Will act up to T/WM, outduty to ride OIC at a station for a shift) T/WM (temp watch manager) WM(D) (watch manager on development) WM(S) (watch manager specialist, i.e. Been non op, now on the run, ops required for development) WM(A) (OIC, one appliance station) WM(B) (OIC, multi appliance station) Clear isn't it...... I will admit that I have mates still in the job that use these terms all the time and I just nod pretending I understand what they are talking about. This is crazy!! God knows how standbys are worked out!!?? The whole concept of rank to role was to reduce the hierarchy to 3 x roles. Only the LFB could mess it up so there are now effectively 13 - almost 5 times as many as originally envisaged. Steve M: Thanks for the breakdown Link to comment
Noddy Posted April 16, 2017 Share Posted April 16, 2017 I always wanted to be a station officer! I hope it spreads north and I just might ? Link to comment
Dan J Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Interesting that LFB have so many variations on the role system. We kept it simple. Firefighter, Crew Commander, Watch Commander, Station Commander, Group Commander, Area Commander, Deputy Chief, Chief. Although it took some getting used to rank to role, I see no real benefit in going back now. Link to comment
Becile Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Exactly the same here in Surrey, works for me ! Link to comment
Firestorm Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 On 14/04/2017 at 23:38, Steve said: The issue we have got is the visual 'demotion' of WM(A)'s and CM's... as well as what to do with all of the CM*, CM+, Ff+ and all the other sticking plaster nonsense we've built up over a decade and a bit. Obviously the WM(A)'s will go back to yellow hats and two stripes like a CM and the CM's will go to a single stripe. No great shakes for those of us who remember that system and how effective the old Lff's and Sub O's were, but for the new people, I feel they'll need some love. You're dead right I will. Telling me I'll become a SubO having done the exact same development and assessments as a B and having the same level of fireground responsibility, won't wash with me. The only difference is that I look after fewer people on station.....and the shitty pay that goes with a rank that's received no pay rise since I became substantive in 2011 (I'm actually down over £50 a month on 2011 levels!) So the further kick in the bo11ox won't go down well. (and breath!) However... I believe I'll be protected for 2/3 years (I go next year anyway) and/or get the offer of a B post (good luck with that!), We'll see. 1 Link to comment
Ian Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 52 minutes ago, Becile said: Exactly the same here in Surrey, works for me ! Ditto Link to comment
Steve M Posted July 10, 2017 Author Share Posted July 10, 2017 Latest update..... This is from the Union: The consultation period on the draft proposal ends on 30thJune. Implementation could take place by early 2018. Station Officer WMBs will be assimilated into this role on the same terms. Substantive and operationally competent WMAs will be given 12 weeks to apply for a Station Officer role. All eligible officers will remain on a transfer list for up to 3 years, and will then return to a Sub Officer role after this time. Sub Officer There will be a phased implementation for Sub Officer role. Competent WMAs who do not choose to go for Station Officer roles will become Sub Officers after the 12 week application process. Sub Officers will be required to spend a minimum of 18 months on development before competency is achieved. Competent Sub Officers may be required to hang on at times to cover a Station Officer role. Sub Officer at a 2 or multi appliance station may be required to act up for Station Officer (at development rate of pay) to cover short term absences. Time served as a CM+ will be taken into consideration for the promotion process although the + attribute is not essential for application to become a Sub Officer. Leading FF Existing CMs will be assimilated into LFF role. CM+ scheme will become the LFF+ scheme until officer roles are fulfilled. Competent LFFs will be encouraged to go for Sub Officer roles. LFFs will be required to spend a minimum of 9 months on development before competency is achieved. Competent LFFs may be required to act up for a Sub Officer for a minimum of £3.50 a shift. Once the draft is approved, the Role to Rank structure will be voted on through Branch votes or personal ballot. 2 Link to comment
Dyson Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 This is excellent, will they be introducing some sort of examination / qualification system? Its good news, lets get a bit of tradition back from these modernising lunatics Link to comment
Noddy Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I know... how about LFF, Sub O and SO exams?? 1 Link to comment
Keith Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 So if this all goes through and it all shakes out, will this mean that on a multi pump station you will have a Stn O in charge, a Sub O and a LFF and on a single pump a Sub O in charge with a LFF? Wonder where we may have heard that before? Link to comment
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