Vema11 Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Just wanted to start a topic on 24 hour shifts. Throughout my small amount of time in the service. It has been talked about quite a bit and almost everyone i speak to thinks they will be great. More time off, less travelling, 1 set of checks the list goes on, there are lots of benefits to the service and firefighters. Anyone on here work them, and if so what are they actually like to work day to day, Any negatives? Thanks. Link to comment
Messyshaw Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 I am glad you said "Almost everyone" thinks they are great. Mainly as I do not accept and cannot accept a 24hr shift is safe - with the exception of dealing with a major incident etc. More time off v being so tired that you make mistakes which may lead to an accident or injury? Its madness. How does one set of checks represent a safer system of work than two opportunities to spot issues? Fire service vehicles are rightly exempt from vehicle driving hours. The spirit of the exemption is to allow flexible working for surge conditions and not to allow draconian working hours. I know many people that travel long distances would benefit, but with respect, it is your decision if you have accepted a job that requires you to drive 4 hours home down the motorway after a crappy night. 24hr shifts would impose that tired driving as a usual commute for many - is that a responsible way for an employer to proceed So come on, help me change my mind. Give me some real tangible advantages other than 'more time off, less travelling, 1 set of checks'. I am willing to be convinced but it will need a better business case than that 1 1 Link to comment
Aspire Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, Messyshaw said: So come on, help me change my mind Afraid I wholeheartedly agree with you on not seeing real benefit Only seems, in my experience, that its those who travel further that call for it to benefit their own lifestyle. Not much wrong with that in principle, but not much benefit to Brigades or communities. 1 Link to comment
OscarTango Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Do them on the regular. Busy station. Absolutely fine. We're Self-rostered so also do single days and nights too, though 24 most of the time. Nothing magic about them, but it does very much help those who have to travel longer distances. I have to smile at some of the fatigue criticisms. I get it, but we all know the realities of this job. How many people actually manage to get a proper restorative sleep in between nights on 224? Id guess out of the people with kids, fiddle jobs and long commutes, not many. We also know that the health damage from night shifts come from chronic repeated disruptions of our circadian rhythm. That's why the second night always stings more. Personally I can recover from a day+night+off combo much quicker than night+night+off one. Also as I driver I feel sharper and safer behind the wheel on the night part of a 24 than I do on the second bounce of two night shifts, even if the day has been busy. 24s all the way for me. Link to comment
Vema11 Posted January 22, 2022 Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 @Messyshaw im not here to sell anything, I just wanted to speak to people who actually work them to see what it’s like These are my personal thoughts on it. the benefits for the community and firefighters would be; Less travel, less money on petrol etc Reducing the carbon footprint of many firefighters. Less travelling to work, (travelling back and forward 4 times instead of 8 times a week) 1 set of detachments in a 24 hour period, less firefighters moving about again reducing carbon footprint also cutting costs of the detachment bill. Less money on overtime shouts at shift change as there is only going to one. 1 set of checks, less wear and tear of BA sets, PPV, cutting gear etc. giving the gear a long life. Depending on which 24 system, I’ve looked into this and we work a lot of weekends. 1 fully off in every 7 weekends, with 24s you get more full weekends off, which creates a better family environment. Also festive periods are interrupted less, your not going to work consecutive days over Christmas or new year. I signed up to work weekends etc, but if they can be reduced great! More time in the day to do community work and training, not rushing to get knocked off for a certain time to head home, prevention, protection work and training could be carried out at 5/6 o’clock when people are actually in their homes. which is more flexible for them and us. Especially training if a shout messes up your afternoon drill you aren’t then scrapping it, as you’ve ran out of time and got other stuff to do before change of watch. Most of these come with some sort of money saving, which isn’t my primary concern, but this money could then be put back on the frontline, invest in equipment and stations. Also the argument of 24 hour shifts not being safe in my opinion doesn’t hold much water. We work two night shifts back to back. How many people go to bed or rest fully before our first night. No many..(so if you are out all night you’ve already had 24 hours without sleep or rest) how many people have the luxury of going back to sleep in between nights, again not everyone, with kids and other commitments it isn’t alway possible to get a good few hours of quality rest. So your going back on your second night shift with a few hours sleep and putting yourself through a night shift again where you could be busy all night, with only a few hours sleep over a 48 hour period. Working 24 hour shifts would allow 24 hours rest before and after any shift. If you look at Europe, America and across the world, firefighters work 24 hour shifts and have done for sometime. Link to comment
Luminoki Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 The less detatchments is a good thing for the service. Think about it. Up to 4 firefighters sent out at the start of shift. They have to travel to 4 different stations, you factor in the traffic and distances, on average thats four stations that may be on minimum riders or not even on the run at all. Only to be repeated at the end of the shift. So for say an average of 90 minutes a shift ( if youre lucky ) youve got a fire engine that is unable to respond with a nice to have crew or not at all leaving that area without fire cover. Then it happens all over again next shift. So thats 3 hours of a 24 hour period that a service isnt fulfilling its maximum potential. And youve only got one vehicle to do it all in, so by the time you get to the last drop off its 10am. The crap really hits the fan if one of the chain gets a job around the going back to station time, vans are borrowed so OT isnt incurred, the yard at home station starts to look like a royal mail sorting office and the next shifts 4 are without any transport. I did this merry go round for 3 years and i saw stations in my service i didnt know even existed Link to comment
Dyson Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 I’ve done them and I liked em. However I didn’t like the 1 less Rita day. Aspire, you work them, in fact you work several on the bounce ? 1 Link to comment
Aspire Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Very different though. I don't attend the countless different types of incidents that frontline crews do. I am ‘on call’ from home for very specific incident types, not at a station attending everything that comes over the printer. A 24 for me is worlds apart from what it would be had I have worked them when in charge at Shoreditch. Not to say that I can’t, or have never, have a difficult 24hrs, but a lot less likely! 2 1 Link to comment
Matt Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Humberside have been running them for a few years now, the majority seem to prefer them to 224, more benefits. 24 on, 24 off, 24 on then 5 off. Union won't agree to it so its still on a trial last I heard that just keeps rolling over unless things have changed. Can work out well with annual leave taking a few days and shift swaps there are advantages. Link to comment
Noddy Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 @Messyshaw Mate I completely understand and respect your view, and if fire stations were as busy as they used to be, I would 100% be with you. However, in my (admittedly limited) experience of 24 hour shifts on station, only through friends who work them, they can be a good thing for the reasons already provided by others. My view therefore is that 24 hour shifts "work" if the station isn't a busy one. If it is, then I agree with your points. As an aside, I work 24 hour shifts myself but similar to @Aspire, I only turn out to specific jobs. However, when I do turn out, I am usually out for at least 6-12 hours. I am duty FI tomorrow for example, so at 0900 I go 'on the run' until Thursday morning. In theory I could be out the door at 0900, out all day, back for a brew in the evening only to be back out again all night at a second job. This is when 24 hour shifts fall over and aren't sustainable. In such an example I am completely 'you know what' by the end of it. The argument is, is that such as example is very rare, so its rarity is outweighed by the benefits of running with 24 hour shifts. Being honest, I worked 2 2 4 for 20 years (both on station and as an FI) and having now worked 'flexibly' with 24 hour shifts for four years, I wouldn't go back to 2 2 4. 1 Link to comment
HoldFast Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 I really don’t see why they’re any worse than doing 2 consecutive night shifts. How many people actually go back to bed for any decent amount of time between their nights? Not many I’ll bet. Take 9’s and 15’s… can you really say a 24 hour shift is any worse than 2 consecutive 15 hour night shifts between which you haven’t had any sleep? Hello potential for 48 hours without any proper rest Link to comment
Noddy Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 I don't agree Holdfast. Its a whole different ball game if people choose not to rest between 15 hour night shifts... the point is that they can rest if they choose. On a 24 there is no choice to be had. 1 1 1 Link to comment
OscarTango Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 @Noddy What would you consider the threshold of "busy-ness" out of interest? In modern terms? What percentage of stations in the large brigades do say, plus 2000 calls a year? (Appreciate that would have been quite a middling number back in the 90s) Link to comment
Luminoki Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 In West Mids, 0%, the way our calls are logged is confusing. The busiest station is Ladywood. However the ladder, which is the busiest in the service does around 700. The brv, which is a different shift system does around the same number. They are AFA central though. If you would use the model that DCP was set against and looked at stations with say, less than 600 calls a year, theres about 6 core non tech rescue stations in west mids that would qualify 1 Link to comment
OscarTango Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 So am I reading that right? The busiest station does 1400 shouts a year split over two appliances? Link to comment
Noddy Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 45 minutes ago, OscarTango said: @Noddy What would you consider the threshold of "busy-ness" out of interest? In modern terms? What percentage of stations in the large brigades do say, plus 2000 calls a year? (Appreciate that would have been quite a middling number back in the 90s) Without digressing into the busy stations chat, we don’t have any stations doing 2k calls a year with most doing closer to 1k. The days of 3-5k calls a year which I was fortunate to experience are long gone in West Mids. If we consider that most shouts aren’t drawn out incidents then as a real rough guess I’d say a station doing up to around the 1k a year would cope doing 24 hour shifts. For those who do work 24’s, how busy are you? 1 minute ago, OscarTango said: So am I reading that right? The busiest station does 1400 shouts a year split over two appliances? I’m not on station mate and don’t look at the stats so others may confirm but yes, that sounds about right and remember, if @Luminoki is right, most of those shouts are AFA,s 1 Link to comment
OscarTango Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Fascinating, I had always assumed that WMFS would have it's near equivalent of Soho or Paddington with a 2-3k turnover or there abouts (not that its a competition obviously!). For reference we did just over 2000 shouts last year as a two appliance and height vehicle station, not a huge amount of AFAs and not including standby moves. Again compared to the "old days" that's a middling number, but have certainly had the "all day then all night" scenario a number of times. I certainly prefer it that way rather than spread the pain out over two consecutive nights. I will admit that it's not a straight comparison as we also do single shifts as well (though not as much), and it's self rostered so no fixed schedule. I think looking abroad to France or the US who do solely 24s at high-number stations would be a good point of reference. Link to comment
Luminoki Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Dont want to detrail the thread so if anyone wants to Pm me about West Mids unique practices feel free. How does the shift planning work out re the officers? Is there give and take dependant on circumstances for the shift I.E. shouts interrupting training etc? I know of officers that would look at the bigger picture depending on how the days going, like substituting evening training for a lecture if theyve had a battering day. I also know of officers that would try to fit in 5 drills for the shift along with the routines, prevention and protection work. I do think SR is the way to sneak in 24s, if they were offered to me i would take them Link to comment
HB2016 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 That really surprises me. I thought West Mids would be well up there in terms of shouts. I thought we were quiet down here but we have a couple of stations that are around the 2000/2500 mark and quite a few in the 1500~ area with the lowest around the 700 mark. We have a few stations 'trialling' the self rostered crewing system with most opting to do 24's. These are all on the quieter stations and those that do it, love it and are adamant they would not go back. Although when I was at our busiest station we discussed it amongst the watch and the overwhelming response was that they weren't keen - what with having both busy days and nights we just figured we'd be knackered all the time. I haven't ever done 24's myself though. My biggest issue is that I am useless 😂 if you gave me a blank calendar and said put when you can work on it. I would mess it up! I like being sent my rota every year with a clearly coloured 'red' pattern that I can follow! Link to comment
Healdav Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 On 22/01/2022 at 15:44, Vema11 said: @Messyshaw If you look at Europe, America and across the world, firefighters work 24 hour shifts and have done for sometime. France normally has 24 hour shifts, but many firefighters, especially in the cities, live on site. Where they don't most stations have two person dormitory accommodation. I don't know about other countries. Link to comment
Crog Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 I did 4 years in the same service as @OscarTangobefore transferring out and can count on one hand the amount of time we’ve had to book unavailable to get a bit of rest on a 24. That was at a single pump station that was the busiest pump in the service. Bar a few exceptions, 24’s are not an issue in the modern service. Link to comment
Noddy Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 2 hours ago, OscarTango said: Fascinating, I had always assumed that WMFS would have it's near equivalent of Soho or Paddington with a 2-3k turnover or there abouts (not that its a competition obviously!). It most definitely is a competition mate!! We all want to be the busiest 😆 Anyway... back to the topic. 1 1 Link to comment
Percy Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Any Brigade that in 2022, given all the criticism in Bain, Knight, Thomas etal of rigid patterns not being flexible for modern life, be that 2-2-4 or 24 on 72 off or 24 on 24 off 24 on 4 days off, is barking mad and I doubt any will go that route. Self Rostering is the only credible solution for 2022 for both the service and staff and and if die hard 2-2-4 lovers want to stick to that within SR they can do! SR with the option to the individual of choosing to do either a day, night or 24 is the flexibility zenith. Bring it on I say. 1 Link to comment
Luminoki Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Another couple of questions for those who have worked 24s or SR. 1 - whats the station establishment numbers for the station compared to a 224 shift 2 - and is it all geared to riding 4 Link to comment
OscarTango Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Interestingly enough SR was brought in here to we could lose the ridership factor and always have "just" enough to ride to four. Ironically, now we are recruiting so much the plan is to be over establishment at every station. We're even having to find more lockers for people. Now that the key factor for introducing SR has basically gone many are asking why we don't have watches again all running 24s. Link to comment
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