24 Hour Shifts

[Crog]

38 minutes ago, Luminoki said:

Another couple of questions for those who have worked 24s or SR. 
1 - whats the station establishment numbers for the station compared to a 224 shift

2 - and is it all geared to riding 4

With a single pump station, establishment went from 28 (with 4 WM’s and however many CM) to 22 (1 WM, 5 CM). All WT rode 4 with just the one JO on, bar a number of shifts each year that had to ride 5 or have 2 JO’s to ensure everyone works the allocated number of shifts a year (69 days, 69 nights from memory, unless you had long service). Sounds like that is changing though from OT.

[Percy]

19 minutes ago, OscarTango said:

Interestingly enough SR was brought in here to we could lose the ridership factor and always have "just" enough to ride to four. 

Ironically, now we are recruiting so much the plan is to be over establishment at every station. We're even having to find more lockers for people. 

Now that the key factor for introducing SR has basically gone many are asking why we don't have watches again all running 24s.

Where’s this? Kent?

[Rory-495]

Funnily enough reading this thread, I would love 24s as I love the job. If I was still on my first station I would HATE it because of how slow it was. 10.5 hours was long enough there. Doing 24 would have felt like a prison sentence

[Percy]

2 hours ago, Luminoki said:

Another couple of questions for those who have worked 24s or SR. 

1 - whats the station establishment numbers for the station compared to a 224 shift

2 - and is it all geared to riding 4

SR has got nothing to do with 4s or 5s.

it can be designed around either, it’s just about removing the ridership factor.

To answer your first point... (this is based on a one pump FS).

Designed around 4s... everyone works 152 shifts per year. 8 rider positions per 24 hours, 8 x 365 = 2920 rider positions. 2920/152 = 19.2 (you can’t have .2 of a person so round up) so you need 20 staff.

Designed around 5s... everyone works 152 shifts per year. 10 rider positions per 24 hours, 10 x 365 = 3650 rider positions. 3650/152 = 24.01 so 24 staff. 

Standard crewing of 5 allows the system to be planned around 5 but then there is the built in last minute contingency of someone goes sick before shift the pump is on minimum crewing. Planned around 4 and someone goes off it’s off the run.

[OscarTango]

@Percy Kent aye. 

It's just wishful thinking on the part of some there are zero plans to go back to watches. You are correct that is exactly what happens when someone goes sick. We've tried all sorts such as having a floating "watch" of spare bods to cover resilience, lots of detachments at the moment and a lot of Whatsapp to cover shifts. Currently each station has a day where they can roster to five on the spreadsheet so there's is some meat on the bones to cover sickness, either at the station itself or you get detached elsewhere.

[Percy]

12 minutes ago, OscarTango said:

@Percy Kent aye. 

You often hear that SR doesn’t work but when one looks at why there are issues it’s because the FRS has ultimately not resourced the Station with enough staff. If theres LTS then the person needs backfilling, likewise transfers out/promotions - The premise of SR and the removal of the flawed in theory Ridership Factor only works if that minimum is maintained and back filled.

[Vema11]

I can really see the appeal to self rostering, can pick and choose shifts, 24s and flexible, On the other hand i do like being on a watch and having the work family aspect of the job. Also everyone on my current watch are all into the job, keen to get better, learn new skills and keeping busy.  I’d really struggle now working with people who aren’t arsed about the job anymore, or not wanting to train as much, it would make a long shift.

I’ve got a question @Percy, if a met brigade with all wholetime stations decided to go down the route of changing to SR. How would they go about going down to 1 WM when currently all but every station has 4 WMs? Thanks for your input so far it’s been helpful👍

[Dyson]

SR can work, Herts have done it for years. I believe they only do it at very quiet stations, Baldock I think ? That station is probably just a bit too busy to be RDS, so that works I guess

I don’t think it’s going to work at very busy stations, when you’re getting turned out consistently and regularly. I also passionately believe that at these stations the Watch needs that bonding and togetherness, that comes from working with same team. I know watch culture has been criticised over the years by some senior people who don’t get it, but I believe it’s so important to the effectiveness and wellbeing of everyone. 

On balance, and speaking as objectively as I can, I’d say 224 is the best system I’ve ever worked, and I mean the best for everyone, not me as an individual.  

[HB2016]

@Dyson I agree. I love 2-2-4 and not only because it fits very well around my life, but, because I don't have to plan it - it's there in black and white. As well as and for myself, most importantly the watch.

I keep currently being told I'm wrong by those that love 24's - I respectfully tell them that it is impossible to be wrong as it's an opinion. 2-2-4 works best for me and SR would not suit the way I like to work I.e. on a fixed 2-2-4 with a permanent watch.

[OscarTango]

Let's not conflate SR with 24s. You can still do 24s on watches.

The 24on 24off 24on 5days off sounds alright actually. Though I think after a grafter the 24 on 72 off would be ideal. 

[HB2016]

Yes, sorry about that - a slip just because most here are doing 24's on the SR!

[Luminoki]

@Dyson you said you have worked them. Was that in a management capacity? How was the watch run? Was the structure of a shift very rigid abd aside from the one less rota day did you find any bits particularly enjoyable/annoying

[Dyson]

@Luminokiover the years I worked as a firefighter and watch manager on 24’s. The watches essentially run the same as 224 during the day, and then generally you chill out after supper once the work ( training, routines and visits) is done, but you do have to crack on and get the work done during the day as there is no 2nd day to push it back to. The structure depends on the wm usually, my take was always to try and leave the watch alone during the evening, give them down time to chill out together. It’s a long shift. 

I liked the shift, didn’t like less days off..  I do prefer 224 on balance as I’ve said before. 

[Percy]

On 26/01/2022 at 23:55, Vema11 said:

I can really see the appeal to self rostering, can pick and choose shifts, 24s and flexible, On the other hand i do like being on a watch and having the work family aspect of the job. Also everyone on my current watch are all into the job, keen to get better, learn new skills and keeping busy.  I’d really struggle now working with people who aren’t arsed about the job anymore, or not wanting to train as much, it would make a long shift.

I’ve got a question @Percy, if a met brigade with all wholetime stations decided to go down the route of changing to SR. How would they go about going down to 1 WM when currently all but every station has 4 WMs? Thanks for your input so far it’s been helpful👍

So you’re saying the other people on your Station aren’t arsed about the job? I’ve heard all the reasons about watches for years… “we know each other’s strengths and weaknesses” etc. but it’s just the same. The Statikns establishment is just one watch of you like and over time you will work with everyone, peoples skills, knowledge and needs will all dilute across 24 just as it did 4 x 7. 

Who said you just have one WM? In GMFRS we chose this model at the Non SDS Fire Stations as you may well know but that’s specific to us and the fact that they’re operating 24’s by default.

So some more maths for you… how many JO Rider positions per 24 hours on a one pump FS?…. 2. So 2 x 365 = 730. 730/152 shifts per year = 4.8 JO’s needed. So 5 call it.

Just because it’s SR doesn’t mean you can’t have Watches either. You can have 4 Watch Commanders in charge of their teams but this is for admin/line manager purposes only, the main admin being ensuing their respective Rosters go in and all skills are covered. When actually on Duty with one of their reportees they can have more time for them and training looks after it’s self with each Watch Commander ensuing that days Training was performed and signing off those that err in shift…. People make it sound far far harder than what it is 😂

On 27/01/2022 at 09:42, Dyson said:

SR can work, Herts have done it for years. I believe they only do it at very quiet stations, Baldock I think ? That station is probably just a bit too busy to be RDS, so that works I guess

I don’t think it’s going to work at very busy stations, when you’re getting turned out consistently and regularly. *Are you not confusing SR and 24s? How can choosing when to come to work or not be affected by how many shouts the station does?

i also passionately believe that at these stations the Watch needs that bonding and togetherness, that comes from working with same team. *A staton establishment is a squad. Over time regardless of the starting 11 chosen the dilution will mean they will all work with one another, they will all train with one another and they will all ‘know’ each other.

I know watch culture has been criticised over the years by some senior people who don’t get it, but I believe it’s so important to the effectiveness and wellbeing of everyone. *Same as above really mate.

On balance, and speaking as objectively as I can, I’d say 224 is the best system I’ve ever worked, and I mean the best for everyone, not me as an individual. *Apart from the fact that the individual has little to no control in when they want to work or not. If they want more than four days off they have to use leave. If they only need to be off for the days of school holidays to mind the kids until their partners get home they don’t have the option other than to take the whole day off rather than just working nights and saving leave for their family instead… and that’s just a couple. On the Services side of the fence… if we had a welding company and we were all shareholders… say we needed 100 welders. Would we employ at least 120 to cover sickness and other non leave absences? Of course we wouldn’t we would just offer OT as and when. The premise (word used correctly) of the Ridership Factor is only theoretical anyway in so far as it would only work if those ‘extra’ staff all sat in a room waiting to be used but they incur sickness, leave and courses too so it’s a perpetual in efficiency that we can no longer afford. SR is coming - it’s like  Nuclear Power 😂… people are so scared and wary of it because they don’t know the facts and the immense benefits. They just listen to the scare stories.

Ultimately there are TWO shift system concepts….

One where the employer says when to come to work and when not to. Or……… One where the employee says when they want to work and when they can’t.

in 2022, I know which of the two that can only be more conducive to better family life and better over all work life balance.

[Dyson]

Well Percy you were certainly full of beans last night ! 😂 maybe I am confusing SR and 24s and DCP 😵‍💫 I’m completely bamboozled by the amount of numbers and information you’re throwing at us ! You’re going to make a great senior officer ! I’m just an idiot who rides a fire engine for a living mate, and that’s what I love to do. I know what shifts I like and I know what I think works for the wider team. 

We will see if SR takes off, if it begins to come my way I’ll get someone who speaks my language to explain in to me, using crayons and a wall ❤️

[Percy]

I don’t know about that pal - they keep blocking me from GM but they’ve run out of excuses this next time 😂

I can put it in layman’s terms too, if you can’t understand then it’s not you it’s me!😂 I need to explain things simpler.

Shift Systems was my dissertation for my BA Hons so unlike the vast maj who think they know or know someone who thinks they know... I do 🤪

Quote removed as its a direct quote of the previous post. Please see FAQ

Edited January 30, 2022 by Carl

[Kinmel]

On 29/01/2022 at 23:49, Percy said:

So some more maths for you… how many JO Rider positions per 24 hours on a one pump FS?…. 2. So 2 x 365 = 730. 730/152 shifts per year = 4.8 JO’s needed. So 5 call it.

That manning calculation drops the pump every time someone goes missing - training, sickness, detachment, holidays, riding another seat, etc. 

So the built-in manning deficiency has to be made up somewhere and if it's not provided for at station level, the complexity soon gets out of hand.

Planning for minimum manning is planning to fail, as the military say " One is none"