BA Procedures

[Jono]

Thought I’d start a convo on differences in BA procedures, as recently I started retained for another county as well as my wholetime job and there was a fair bit of difference to what I thought would be pretty standard ( how dare I 😂).

I know some brigades only do directional and not compartment and some have different names for them like “line search” etc. My current wholetime does both.

I know in my current brigade there is a lot of trust in the BA team which is great as you can for example change your brief should the conditions or something else dictate this internally ( in on a left hand and discover fire on a right so inform and change to a right hand to Firefight for example) also when doing your BAR everything’s to be treated as if it was an actual, get in and get it done and get out etc in a safe manner) 

My retained brigade are adamant that number 1 always stays on the wall, even if on a left and the number 2 branches out finds a door on the right and discovered a fire they say the branch stays with number 1 and they do not come off that wall, they simply if possible fight the fire from that position, snatch a causality if able to or close the door an await another BA team to be sent in on a right to firefight, and not move past that position. All seemed pretty back to from for me allowing a fire to continually develop instead of attacking it but moving a meter to your left or right.

Their BAR is without any ticks nor is it treat like real-time. I can see good points in both but just thought I would start a conversation on the matter and get a few opinions and information on other brigades methods that you maybe think are decent or rotten 😂

[OscarTango]

Having worked for three different services the debate around BA "correctness" is as old as the hills and frankly gets boring after a while. People seem to get so dogmatic about it. Humans ultimately will do what is easiest for them, rightly or wrongly.

One theme I do notice is "BAR vs real world" . BA Assessments are quite proscriptive, wears are slow because people don't want to fail. TC then say "do what you would do in a normal job", then lo and behold we get people relaxing a little too much and getting pinged for using a bit too much "artistic licence". 

Short answer, why would you not give the number two the branch if it makes sense? If it's clearly communicated to your oppo and you've weighed risk vs benefit then go for it. Same goes for clipping on, changing search pattern, casualty handling etc. 

 

[Dyson]

So….you’re on a LHW pattern…. You establish the fire (the thing that’s gonna kill everyone) is to the right…. And you’re not allowed to change your pattern to extinguish the thing that’s gonna kill everyone? 
 

brilliant 😵‍💫🤩

[Jono]

Aye pretty much, they said the famous words “obviously in real time” you would have to do something about it, a quote I’m sure annoys a good few people and not just me depending on the scenario 

[Dyson]

Which brigade is this, the RDS one? 

[Luminoki]

One thing i remember from being a probationer ( and even more recently ) during assesments and training sessions was “treat it for real” Lo and behold you treat it for real ( crack the cylinder en route, dont start up test out properly as youve done it on your daily test, receive any pertinent information or even a brief 😱 when youre already under air and halfway up the garden path ) and then get torn up about it.
 

I once went to a smoke alarm actuating that turned into a PR reported job. It saw the watch commander rush in and then be beaten back by the smoke ( i guess sometimes a white lid is not immune to smoke and heat 😜 ) our brief over the radio was “get in here” as we were at the end of the alleyway setting up the board and reel in preparation and followed by “get in there and f*****g find her” by a coughing and spluttering gaffer when we met him at the door. Thankfully we got her out and she survived

Yes i know the procedures are there for a reason ( and if i get a strip torn off me here so be it ) and going against them can get you killed. However i beleive that due to the nature of our job you have to push the envelope SOMETIMES, especially when theres confirmed life at risk. Ive. been told what the H&W BA team did to try and save those lads at Atherstone and frankly its hair raising, its only due to the skill and experience of that BA team that there was only 4 deaths that night and not 6

[LFB92]

There’s a fine line between being a freelancing liability and a good firefighter willing to work outside of policy when the proverbial hits the fan.

[JonnyHolbs]

I think it’s about the FRS in question giving its staff the tools and training required to function safely in a hazardous environment. It’s then on the individuals in the job to use their own DRA and potentially go outside of policy according to risk/benefit.

IMHO, treating a normal BA drill like a ‘real job’ is pointless, because they’re about developing safe practice. Obviously the caveat is BA drills with changing circumstances that encourage people to consider ways in which it might be beneficial to deviate from policy.

[WTTJ]

Very few BA wears are completely by the book. Not every door needs a door procedure, not every staircase needs a stair procedure, sometimes the fire isn't where it was thought to be, something unexpected happens etc etc.

All of us should be able to wear by the book, and this should always be our default. However a service not training or discouraging its ffs to work outside of procedure when required could cost a life or cause injury.

[OscarTango]

I've mentioned this before but any otherbrigades require everyone clips on as standard?

[HB2016]

@OscarTango As in to each other using personal line on BA set?

[Crog]

2 hours ago, OscarTango said:

I've mentioned this before but any otherbrigades require everyone clips on as standard?

When I left KFRS, they were just starting to allow us to not clip on at tc, finally realising we didn’t in the real world. 
In my new service, we don’t, but number 2 has to have constant hold of hose and generally maintain a 1-2m gap with that.

[Rory-495]

LFB you have to clip on during training school at all times, then once on station either clip on, touching or In reach of each other

[Jono]

Yeah they have binned our Lines so we no longer clip on, but we should remain as @Crog said, either in vision or on the hose as a number 2.

[WTTJ]

We must simply remain within a close distance. Ideally touching distance but if we get to some iffy stairs or need to search a larger room, we have licence to move further apart.

[HB2016]

We remain in personal contact at all times as default (holding on to backplate handle) with DRA's allowed e.g. using the hose reel to go a little further apart to search. Obviously stairs are one wearer at a time so no personal contact for that.

We relax procedures when using tactical ventilation however.

Personal lines only used for guidelines here.

[Steve]

The policy and procedure is fine but as I said, and of course none of the grown up's were ever prepared to give me an answer in the 'bear pit' (Borough Commander comm's days at HQ)... 🤣 What is going to happen in fact, at 3am when someone is confirmed as missing? 

I especially want to hear from LFB crews serving now as the changes to BA procedures came pretty late on in my time with LFB. The only way we ever effectively dealt with domestic fires, which to all intents and purposes, apart from a few outliers, are a known commodity... was to get in, as the initial pair, split up if Persons reported, one to gain some control of the fire, the other to begin a search. And even if we didn't split up properly we'd take a room at a time as a pair splitting up. The last time I was part of an initial  first arriving BA team would have been as a Leading hand on the back in around *1995/6, but up until 2002 when I was still a Stn O I knew how my crews deployed and even more recently when I'd 'turn out' when I liked the look/sound of something right up until my last days and as far as I could tell, albeit I wasn't there as they committed but did arrive soon after, it all seemed pretty much as it used to be?

I think Millsy had just become AC when this changed and I (among others) really grilled him and there was no alternative answer apart from "procedure...." "Lesson's Learned..." "National picture..." Non of which particularly impressed me. 

 

*Looking at the dates mentioned, 25/26 years since I was last part of an initial BA crew, almost 20 years since I was a Stn O arriving as part of the first attendance (and we first started discussions on this board), I feel I am now too much a part of history to offer regular commentary on such matters as I've no doubt at least some contributing may not even have been born back then. But in this case, please indulge me as I am genuinely interested.

[HB2016]

@Steve It would be fair to say (not LFB) that what you describe is much the same for us. We're aware of policy and procedure and know what 'rules' we are breaking and why - as I'm sure so do most in any other service. With this in mind, we're kind of told nowadays that we can DRA as long as we can justify our actions and it's not unnecessarily dangerous or reckless.

In fact, I did that only today and we pulled a gentleman out of his property fire. He might not pull through (was in room of fire origin) but had we not been a little dynamic the outcome could of been different.

It is kind of frustrating that we are taught only to do things by the book, with both training and managers knowing full well that we use artistic license when in the 'real world' to get the job done. Why can't we acknowledge this and work to get some guidance around it?! a bit above my pay grade though, that.

[Steve]

Well done for that, I hope the outcome is a happy one for all involved. 

[Messyshaw]

On 29/10/2021 at 19:52, HB2016 said:

@Steve 

It is kind of frustrating that we are taught only to do things by the book, with both training and managers knowing full well that we use artistic license when in the 'real world' to get the job done. Why can't we acknowledge this and work to get some guidance around it?! a bit above my pay grade though, that.

It seems so often, somebody sits in front of  PC to write a procedure to provide a safe system of work- ie with the aim of looking after the safety of the crews, but the resulting produce looks like its aimed protecting the employers arse form litigation and the chance to produce a pragmatic, useful and usual process has been lost.

Sadly, when you see the level of scrutiny of individual firefighters and the LFB at the Grenfell Inquiry,  I can't see any change which will provide greater autonomy to the crews on the ground 

[HB2016]

@Messyshaw You hit the nail on the head there. I don't really know what the alternative is either, other than to keep doing what we already do. I.e. step outside policy knowing if it goes well - we're golden. And if it doesn't? prepare to answer some questions.

I have to admit, we are getting told more and more to 'react to the conditions' but it's difficult when the policy is pretty clear cut and the 'advice' is so vague.

[BurtMacklin]

Pretty sure if a brigade did try and put some thing in policy to relax BA procedures in the situations discussed above the union would immediately shoot it down anyway. 

[Dyson]

Steve I don’t really know what changes you mean, but things operationally are pretty much as you describe. 

[Steve]

I can't remember the detail, but it was sometime around the end of 2017 early 2018 when the procedures were updated with details such as BA wearers having to remain clipped together or in touch with each other at all incidents, where the spirit of successful domestic Firefighting relied on crews being free to work dynamically.

To be fair, I don't have the policy in front of me and I have moved on now in terms of what occupies the front of my mind, but I know when I read it, it was in my opinion quite a step back, considering the improvements in reliability of BA sets, telemetry and so on. 

14 hours ago, BurtMacklin said:

Pretty sure if a brigade did try and put some thing in policy to relax BA procedures in the situations discussed above the union would immediately shoot it down anyway. 

This is another area, where I have had some debate with the FBU. They are continuing down the lines of enhancing (opposed to reviewing and improving) BA procedures that are now 70 years old. It is time to consider the whole area of BA control in a fundamental review, based on modern BA equipment, the type of fires attended, DRA (do we really ever want to commit Ff's with BA guidelines again, bearing in mind the high risk/low gain that those types of operations generally entail.... deep seated commercial fires with little life risk?).

It isn't about relaxing, it's about looking at where we are in terms of technology, seeing where the rest of the (sensible) World is... so what is done in other advanced safety conscious countries such as Germany, Sweden etc and using this to develop better, safer and more relevant procedures. The FBU is obsessed to the point of danger with maintaining the status quo. The potential outcome will be lives lost or procedurally 'abandoned' by policy, forcing Firefighters on the scene to do their own thing, as we know WILL happen and DID happen at Grenfell Tower. Better to work within a policy that allow's some dynamic flexibility (risk more to save saveable lives) that have the 'Mick' scenario that we saw at Grenfell where brave firefighters plunged into that hell, genuinely no knowing if they would come out again. 

[Dyson]

Well I can reassure you that In my experience I haven’t seen or even heard it being suggested that wearers should be clipping together, other than when using G/L of course. That idea you remember, clearly didn’t take off. Our crews are working freely, and there are no overly restrictive rules to prevent us doing our job. 

The biggest problem we have with BA, is comms. The Barrie sets are dreadful, they compromise your facemask seal, they are cumbersome and they are notoriously unreliable. I’m amazed that our employer continues to insist we use them.