Windscreen / Dirty Messages

[Rory-495]

Hi all,

On a recent course at FSC the LFB Babcock IC trainer gave a lecture on windscreen/dirty messages and how there was a drive within the LFB for these to be more common. The idea being that we send at informative within 20 minutes of arrival, instead of an informative ASAP and no longer than 20 minutes.

The principle given was that if you're the first in attendance to a fire the IC can fire off a quick message stating what you see and, most importantly, an inclusion of a tactical mode (thus declaring that a risk assessment has been done). This also gives oncoming appliances or monitoring officers an idea of what they're coming to and what to expect. 

An example would be "from XX, at xxx, house of 2 floors, 25% first floor alight, BA HR, TMO" the key being that the oncoming crews now know it is a job and most importantly that the initial IC has risk assessed and committed a BA team into the hazard area.

I haven't yet heard this being used in LFB or seen a record of it on BOSS, are many other FRS using these methods, is LFB late to the party? I believe Leicester do it but only as my old CM was from them.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts or comments 

[JonnyHolbs]

It always baffled me why we don’t do it in LFB, although I’m starting to notice newer officers who have recently done IC1 sending ‘dirty informatives’. My retained brigade does it without fail and it makes sense so other oncoming trucks know what they’re turning up to.

As an aside, I recently went on standby to a station in the SW and was tipped out to a routine high rise AFA on another ground. The OIC of the truck whose ground it was on arrived and immediately sent an ‘AFA actuating’ informative while we were en route (yes, we know, it’s on the tip sheet). Needless to say, for the first few seconds of that message being broadcast, it suddenly got a bit animated in the truck.

[Messyshaw]

The old days of booking in by RT helped as you could often hear in the radio operators voice a sense of urgency if it was a job. Some brigades would (& may still do) use a few words to describe the scene on arrival.

'Nothing showing' 'Going well.' 'Smoke at rear'

Useful stuff, but with miminmal riders, I would rather of had my crews engaged in meaningful and risk critical work on the fireground than fannying around with dirty messages 

What ever happened to the concept of 'stand it up and if its nothing, stand it down again?'. So you assume its a job until you know otherwise, even if that is info delayed until you arrive 

If there's time, then great, be as as dirty as you like. But I can see some officers priortising messages over critical work.

I knew a pretty useless Guvnor- nice enough bloke, just useless😇. He always prioritised messages over everything! And often abandoned command on the fireground to send them 

I once worked (with a colleague) for 45mins performing CPR to a very poorly guy who had been rescued from a fire. We were not sure he even had a pulse as paramedics arrived. 

I excitey informed the Stn O with the good news that the ambulance crew had detected a pulse. He replied 'They better not have as I have just sent (rushed) an 'apparently dead' message!. 😳

Now I was good at CPR.... but not that good 🙂🙂

[OscarTango]

Ok so I was expecting this to be about drawing penises on unwashed appliance grime but alas disappointed. I assume you're calling it a "windscreen" message as it's the first thing your see out of on arrival? 

We do a "first impressions" message upon arrival to prompt Control what else might be required and give oncoming pumps an idea of what we've got. It literally is just a say what you see. Then a fuller informative when doable and/or a full ETHANE message after 20 mins

[Carl]

I always thought it was good practice to send an early informative for the very reasons stated above. As an FDS officer its good to hear an early informative as it gives me a good heads up of what I am driving to. Conversely, I don't get too upset if I don't hear one and its a job as clearly there is too much to do and everyone is engaged in the job.

I have had a few incidents where lots of appliances are coming, such as on a Saturday on a busy motorway with an RTC and everything is fighting its way through, only to arrive and find all occupants are sat on the hard shoulder and the crews have given them a blanket. There has been plenty of opportunity to stand pumps down and they have not sent a message. This usually results in a conversation though. 

Our SOP says that informative should be sent 20 mins in. We tend not to use ETHANE as it goes nowhere, other that our own control. Only when a METHANE is sent, is it shared across all control rooms. 

I know a lot of services use ETHANE but we don't see it as detailed enough on everyday jobs.

[Becile]

As per @OscarTango, first impressions with tactical mode and rationale, proves you’ve (mentally)risk assessed it and that’s then time stamped on the message log (nearly every case study you look at points you towards this as good /required practice or criticises when not done) ethane format used from then on in regardless of where it goes. The amount of times it ends across services means it’s there right from the get go even if not required.

I wasn’t convinced when we went with ethane about a year ago I guess as I been used to many other other formats ( haula, Haulam, others, etc etc )but these can be incorporated within ethane to some degree if required. Now it’s just second nature.( and used the same across many of the south east frss.

Why do it all different when we can all do it the same.

[Keith]

I've never heard the terms Windscreen / Dirty message before, but as some of the others have said, it has always been good practice to give an early informative. The tactical mode and the updates every 20 minutes came in with the introduction of ICS.

Another thing that you do miss from the old days of booking in by RT, especially if going to a call with other stations, is you don't know if there's anyone in attendance, which makes a big difference for the Oic if you're arriving first or second.

[Becile]

@Keithour tom tom sat nav for fds (also integrates mobilising system )annouces the the appliances as they book in if your also mobilised on the call. Linked to the vision mobilising system.

[Keith]

Too advanced for our system Becile.

[Messyshaw]

15 hours ago, Carl said:

. As an FDS officer its good to hear an early informative as it gives me a good heads up of what I am driving to.

This is exactly why I used to wait 19 mins and 30 secs to send the first message.

I have known some officers delay turning out and especially at night, wait at home for an informative. So to give me maximum freedom before being micromanaged and bollocked over appliance positioning or some other inconsequential nonsense, I would hang on to the first message as long as possible 🤔

 

[Becile]

@Messyshawan interesting comment, as an FDS officer, If I’ve been tipped there’s very few reasons to delay my turnout, (I have requested the next available informative) in fact there’s an expectations I’m out the doors in a certain time (5 max mins at night) and the situation you describe could work against said officer, when the informative transmission is the opposite of their expectation of what is happening. I get what you say about micromanagement and I would hope that an experienced Officer will understand the purpose of their attendance (and it’s not to micromanage)Yes I’ve experienced it in the past , but with better command and leadership training in most services, you would hope this is not the style of any good (FDS or otherwise) officer. 

19 mins 30 seconds.... nowadays...sorry no, not in my service. 

p.s. my pager is either “inform” or “assigned”. Inform would probably see me want some more info (informative and messages important to determine attendance) assign -I’ve been attached to that incident for a purpose ‘ get going!! No excuses.

[SamFire]

10 hours ago, Keith said:

Too advanced for our system Becile.

Don't worry, the new system will be all singing and dancing along with a fully functioning MDT. Both projects are only five years behind and counting, should be here any day now... 🙄

[Carl]

5 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

This is exactly why I used to wait 19 mins and 30 secs to send the first message.

Presumably a culture which hopefully may no longer exist. If I am mobilised I am going and if I'm not moving within 5 mins I will be asked why

[DualContract]

A local Brigade to me are required to send a full ETHANE message at ALL incidents, even alarm actuations 🙈 Firefighting by numbers at its best. 
We go down the route of first impressions if you wish, if not a more detailed one upon committing crews to the risk. Which I believe follows the incident command manual. 

[Messyshaw]

7 hours ago, Carl said:

Presumably a culture which hopefully may no longer exist. If I am mobilised I am going and if I'm not moving within 5 mins I will be asked why

To be fair, this was a while ago and not all senior officers caused problems. Most were very supportive or not interested 

But some gave me huge headaches and after a run of daft criticisms, I decided to keep them at bay by delaying messages or downplaying the incident 

I really hope this is not the case any more  as I have always welcomed peer reviews and support that the better officers provided 👍. It was just the nob heads I wanted to avoid 

[Jet]

In London a straight make pumps four message on arrival was a pretty good way of knowing you had a job. It was pretty routine as most working jobs were at least four pumps. 

In my new home in GMC it's not common at all. Possibly because of less resources or maybe because we have a three-pump PDA to a building fire instead of LFB's two I don't know. I've been to many jobs in GMC and a bread and butter, one or two room house job is rarely made up. 

My point being that 'make pumps four' is a precise and to the point message that an officer doesn't have to think too hard about sending. There should simply be a standard, simple phrase that can be sent when you have a working job but are not requiring a make up with an informative to follow. 

[Carl]

Forget the latest mentoring that has just come in, that's a different topic, but, do you think the reluctance to go to four is that its because it would have tipped an SM out.

Before mentoring, a 3 pump bedroom fire was ran by a WM alone, providing there was no life risk?

[Jet]

To be honest Carl I think that it's because three is an ideal amount for a standard house fire. Two isn't enough especially with four riders on each machine and well, I can picture the foam emanating from Steve's mouth if he ever heard a 'make pumps three' message 😂

[DualContract]

I’ve often used the ‘house, smoke issuing’ message to show a working job without making up. 

[Dangly1]

Having done the same course Rory, my only concern with the windscreen message is that it's not actually a literal windscreen message which as others have described is a first impressions, so smoke issuing, nothing showing etc. 

I felt it was encouraging officers to get messages away too quick specifically with a tactical mode on it which might lead to some information gathering/hazard identification being missed. 

Sending a first impression when there are multiple appliances/officers attending gives a good idea of what's going on without having sent nothing at all and then rushing your windscreen/dirty message a few minutes later. 

Generally I think the first decent informative gets away by about 10 minutes from experience, although I'm sure those on here based in control are better placed to comment! I'd say Messy's era of using your full 20 minutes to get the first message away is almost gone other than at incidents which are either single resource attending or there's not a lot going on. 

[John]

We have done this now for quite some years, one point being to give an early indication to oncoming appliances what they will be turning up to, but mostly it makes sure that a sufficient incident appraisal has been completed with sufficient information to then carry out a safe system of work based on the risks, a tactical mode is sent to timestamp this decision. A tactical mode can only be declared once a plan has been decided based on the risks present etc

Cheers

[Percy]

On 05/02/2021 at 23:22, Carl said:

Before mentoring, a 3 pump bedroom fire was ran by a WM alone, providing there was no life risk?

Here it was/is - which is a baffler.

A house fire.. often at night?. The three pumps I agree with… but no SM incase it escalates who would already be on scene?

Doesn’t sit right with me tbh.

My dyslekjia has been on over drive with ‘Windscreen’ and ‘Dirty’ message - I swear I’ve re read it thirty times - never heard the phrase.

Surrey have a great system where ‘we’ would do a First Impression Message very quickly - forget 10 mins in! What good is that to on coming resources? 

A 1st I.M was done very early - my only annoyance was I didn’t have the ability equipment wise to send my own via a linked radio there and then yet had to tie up a driver or someone else to use the main scheme on the truck with the task, often when it was Carno’s.

Very short, very succinct - bang, everyone knows, H&S compliant - done.

Eg….

First Impression Message From Watch Commander Evans  - Confirmed house fire, 1st floor well alight - Oscar Offensive Mode.

Sent in seconds 

[Dyson]

First impressions messages are great, I do them, have for years. 

Percy ? Well alight ?! I cringed when I read that, were you chewing a piece of straw when you wrote that ? 🤭

[OscarTango]

@Dyson you.....don't say well alight?🤔

[Percy]

2 hours ago, Dyson said:

First impressions messages are great, I do them, have for years. 

Percy ? Well alight ?! I cringed when I read that, were you chewing a piece of straw when you wrote that ? 🤭

No? It’s an accurate descriptor and quite commonly used when…. It’s ‘well alright’ as opposed to not being too bad on arrival.

I’d probably get in trouble if I said First Impression Message From Watch Commander Evans  - Confirmed house fire, 1st floor coming through the *****^*^ windows - Oscar Offensive Mode. 🤪