LFB’s New TLs

[JonnyHolbs]

Some pictures went up on The Twitters yesterday of one of London’s new 60m turntable ladders. Emblazoned on the side is a Freemasons logo - the new 60m TLs were funded by a ‘charitable donation’ from them. The logo was one of the conditions of the donation, rather than a sign of gratitude from the Brigade. In my eyes, that makes it more of an expensive marketing campaign than a charitable donation. It makes me uneasy. Am I the only one?

[Luminoki]

Personally i think that the logo is wrong, the fire service has historically chosen to be impartial ( union aside ) so whilst this is not political, it could give the impression that the LFB “can be bought” The logo is going to be on those appliances for a very long time i imagine, advertising the fact that the Freemasons bought them. It reminds me of the police cars that were emblazoned with Vote Labour during Blairs election campaign in 2005

That aside i think its a sad state of affairs that another organisation had to dip into their pockets to provide a peice of equipment that the LFB either couldnt afford or didnt want to spend the money on.

Still looks sexier than the TL that Warks bought though 😉

[Br9mp81]

Agree that should not had to be hand out,but tbh with the colours as they are joe public won't notice its a red lorry that goes by.

[Messyshaw]

I am grateful that the Freemasons have made such a huge donation. I don't think think we should criticise their gesture of goodwill and frankly  if anyone is politicising this event, its some within our ranks as shown the posters above.

But I feel very uneasy on a pragmatic level about the supply of these appliances.

A tower block when built and maintained effectively (and lawfully) will not need a 9m ladder, ladder for rescues, let alone a 60m beast like this. We are approaching the three year anniversary and the Freemasons (with the LFB) have come up with this idea, sorted out the legalities of a contract, procured the appliance and had it built and delivered. Yet hundreds of tower blocks still have ACM cladding and Cellotex insulation wrapped around them.

Many are living at risk all these years later as the Govt Inquiry lumbers on for another 18months - 2 years. (Govt Ministers who messed up calls to change building regs won't be called to the stand until Feb 2021, by which time the disaster will be further down the news agenda). Meanwhile, the cladding is likely to stay put around thousands of homes. 

An estimated 5 million people cannot sell their premises as their properties are classified in this crap or high pressure laminate board (as fixed to the Bolton students building). Mortgages are near impossible to be secured on such properties. Many of those 5 million people will have to fork out between £8,000 to £100,000 as the repairs are the leaseholders responsibility. 

Frankly I think the Freemasons have been sold a dummy. Their mega-aerial appliance will spend most of its working life as a water tower on burning single storey warehouses and lower rise fires across the capital and recycle dumps in east London. I reckon the Freemasons offer of help would have been better used in lobbying Govt to make changes quicker. Lets not kid ourselves, the influence of Freemasons is significant and I am sure that if a fraction of the budget used on the ladders used on hospitality - wining, dining and influencing others - changes would have pushed through the agenda much quicker than his rather stalled approach we are seeing now.

The aluminium and insulation industries have invested £millions in lobbying and influencing politics and all the good work being carried out by well meaning industry bodies (including the FBU, Fire Safety Federation, IFE, IFSM, ASFP FBU and many many others) is like urinating into the wind.

This is a Government issue. It is on record that ACM suppliers knew they were selling material that was not suitable. An e-mail leaked to the Inquiry shows one company consciously targeted their product to countries with poor fire safety regulation such as third world countries and the UK. So its the UK Govt (us) that should/must pay the bill.

Imagine in your 40s or 50s - getting a £100,000 bill for removing ACM from around your home that you bought in good faith? Where the hell will you get that sort of cash from at your age? No imagine your are in your 60s, or retired in your 70s or 80+. These people will be made homeless and bankrupt 

A political solution is the only way to protect them, their lives, homes and way of life. A 60m flying staircase won't do it

[Keith]

Leaving the politics aside, has anyone got a bit more information on the TL's?

Couldn't find very much out there, so first observations are based on the picture above. Looks very like a Magirus ladder on a Scania chassis with an odd axle layout. I would have expected a standard 8 x 4 layout with twin steering at the front rather than the rear steering axle behind the drive axles. Don't know how that layout would drive and manoeuvre round tight streets. 

Also don't see the need for the Hi-Viz paint job on the ladders, which looks decidedly odd as the ladders are normally not painted.

I'd be interested to hear what @Dot thinks about them.

[JonnyHolbs]

It’s not just me that’s politicising it. Yes there are some within our ranks that are uncomfortable with it. There are also members of the public that are. My old man’s a funny hand shaker- I’m aware of the organisation and the work they do. By all means they should be able to publicise the fact that they made the donation. But I would personally draw the line at forcing the recipients to drive around in a rolling PR machine for the next decade or so. IMHO, allowing private companies and charities to get involved with the emergency services is a slippery slope.

I’d be interested to know of any conflicts of interest with regard to the ongoing enquiry... 

On 06/03/2020 at 15:04, Luminoki said:

Still looks sexier than the TL that Warks bought though 😉

True, that 😂

[Aspire]

22 hours ago, Keith said:

I would have expected a standard 8 x 4 layout with twin steering at the front rather than the rear steering axle behind the drive axles. Don't know how that layout would drive and manoeuvre round tight streets.

I used to drive the current ALP’s and found the rear steer quite handy. From what I remember, most people did as the design is for helping make tighter turns. The fact that the back swings 25% in the opposite direction to the front wheels took some getting used to, but once you got used to, actually really good. That being said, reversing could be a bit of a pig!

[Jet]

Frankly, I think they've put the logo on there just to distract from the fact that the appliance looks like a hot-dog topping.

[Firestorm]

Some back story for context. LFB principle managers and legal held a meeting to discuss the possibility of officers having to disclose their memberships as Freemasons. A very short time later, the Freemasons approach the LFB with the offer of sponsorship of the new TLs. The LFB drop their Freemasons disclosure plans.

All of course is a massive coincidence. Nothing to see here.

[Rory-495]

@FirestormMy SubO opposite me is not surprised that you would know this!! He says "HI!!" (In a silly voice!)

It does seem suspect and a little sad that this need has had to be filled by a private body. I cant imagine a McDonalds sponsored appliance being very appropriate

[Firestorm]

GG Rory?

[Rory-495]

The very same

[Steve]

On 09/03/2020 at 11:40, Firestorm said:

Some back story for context. LFB principle managers and legal held a meeting to discuss the possibility of officers having to disclose their memberships as Freemasons. A very short time later, the Freemasons approach the LFB with the offer of sponsorship of the new TLs. The LFB drop their Freemasons disclosure plans.

All of course is a massive coincidence. Nothing to see here.

To be honest @Firestorm, Fremasonary in the LFB is an old story and has by and large died out among the current generation of principal Managers. I know a lot of people who were masons, of all ranks (Not me I hasten to add, although I am a full member of the Worshipful Company of Firefighters, which some may consider as similar) but they have largely retired now or sit there getting old in the lower to middle ranks. Most of LFB\s principle managers now are of a completely different mindset and are probably a lot more liberal minded than at any time in history.

On 07/03/2020 at 23:05, Keith said:

Leaving the politics aside, has anyone got a bit more information on the TL's?

Couldn't find very much out there, so first observations are based on the picture above. Looks very like a Magirus ladder on a Scania chassis with an odd axle layout. I would have expected a standard 8 x 4 layout with twin steering at the front rather than the rear steering axle behind the drive axles. Don't know how that layout would drive and manoeuvre round tight streets. 

Also don't see the need for the Hi-Viz paint job on the ladders, which looks decidedly odd as the ladders are normally not painted.

I'd be interested to hear what @Dot thinks about them.

I'll leave all of the technical stuff to Dot, but having discussed this quite a bit over the past couple of years with those involved, I am suitably impressed. I managed to spend some time being shown one of the new smaller 32m articulated ones at Dagenham today. The ladder (and the bright wheelarch bumper combo, probably going to be re-painted) was a specific request of Dani and Tom George the Dep, who have both retired now.  However, speaking with one of the team today, the difference in ladder spotting during difficult evolutions when they were looking at them in Germany was much better with the yellow ladder in low light conditions.

In terms of technology, the little ones are about as advanced as you will see. Quite a few UK FRS have renewed their aerials in the past year or so, but these have (so I am told) had lots of additional new items that Magirus brought forward for such a large contract (15x32m and 4x63m I think).

I agree wholeheartedly with @Messyshaw's comments. However, as much as I know 30m is all you are reasonably expected to need, the fact that Surrey had a taller aerial, for their very specific theme park risk, that was deployed into London a few hours into Grenfell meant a lot of questions were asked. I therefore think that had a lot to do with LFB now owning four of the tallest aerials outside of Asia.

Up against the 2007 Merc/Magirus ALP's and TL's. which until recently I thought looked  modern, these new beast really look the part and make the exisiting fleet look veyr tired.

IMG_0183.HEIC IMG_0184.HEIC IMG_0185.HEIC

 

[Dot]

Hello All,

Reading all comments with interest, and we are all entitled to our views, whether informed or uninformed, they're all welcome.

Keeping in mind I am still a serving member and the Project Manager for these appliances, please don't feel you need to tippy toe around anything, but I will offer a personal view. 

In the week before GT, LFB were ready to order 15 Magirus M32L-AS ladders mounted upon Mercedes Econic chassis. It was the realisation of an almost 20 year aspiration for a single aerial type. There's a debating subject if ever I suggested one...

But then it happened. We all know the circumstances under which Surrey FRS attended with their 42m ALP. It is my personal opinion that had the pictures of that not been beamed around the world then LFB would not be about to receive the 3 XXL ladders currently on order. However, they did, and it was, so in the week immediately post-Grenfell I was summoned to a meeting with various heads of service to discuss the aerial fleet. That very same week Herts FRS had taken delivery of their first 45m Bronto (the Heads of Service didn't know this), and so the consensus around the table was that because Surrey had attended with their 42m, we should follow suit and go for a fleet of 42m TLs. I was pre-prepared for this, so the question from me was along the lines of why would we want to undertake a whole new procurement process for the sake of 10 (ie: 3 floors), when as Messy says earlier and I wholeheartedly agree with, an aerial's modus operandi is not primarily high-rise building stock. Try telling people with no appreciation or understanding of the aerial concept this....

So the prepared part was to say that if LFB were serious about attending high-rise buildings and want to effectively reach higher (we all know this is theory, as Approved Document B proffers no assistance for aerials at all) then they have to get the biggest possible for stations and UK roads if it is a statement you are wanting to make. 

So what is that then?

12m transport length, 64m Turntable Ladder was the answer.

In the following weeks research was done, and in a very strange turn of events while still at my Stn as a WM a FF approached me and asked who should he contact if the Masons wished to contribute to the Brigade. I responded to contact the Commissioner, which was duly done, and the work was done from then on in to come up with the agreements and so on. 

To put a lid on this bit, I'm ambivalent about it. I've no affiliation to that organisation, and if truth be known the Project didn't need the money, but it has enabled funding for other items.

So, on to the vehicles..

In Germany in 2018, there was a Scandinavian TL in the testing yard at Magirus, and both the Commissioner and Dep instantly liked the yellow ladders, so let me put this one to bed. Having now used them extensively, against smoke or grey skies they stand out much better than the grey ladders we currently have. It is incorrect to say they're not painted, they are powder coated, usually grey, but in our and some Scandi Brigades we've decided on the yellow. Must say I like the mustard metaphor!

The bumpers are a slightly different story, they've appeared with them, and although they're growing on me, I can see them being changed, as we as a Brigade went away form painted bumpers on the Mercedes pumps from 2007 as they cost a fortune to replace and paint. It may happen, it may not. 

Scania were chosen so the cab environment for drivers was the same whether they were in a 32 or a 64.

The M32L-AS ladder package is a pretty standard affair, but with the money within the Project we've been able to raise the specification of these ladders by adding a lot of optional equipment to assist ICs and fire-fighters to do their jobs easier and quicker. I can go into that if people want me to, but in broad terms, we have three tiers of stretcher capability up to 78 stone, thermal and night imaging, floodlighting, lots of tech (line) rescue equipment and so on..

The first appliances are doing driving instructor input as we speak, and trainer training continues until April when Operator training will begin. 

In the mean time Mobilising Policy is also being updated so they go on the calls they should be (I've tried for years for this), and so all in all we are looking pretty healthy IMHO.

64s will do usual aerial work, with a few additions to take into account the high-rise element they've so obviously been purchased for. As Steve says, we had to do something, and politics definitely played a role...

That's enough for now... the 64 is back in Germany being finished, and will return completed in the summer. It's easy to get diverted on to them, but we must remember the 32s will be our workhorse aerial that will perform very well.

Dot 

On 07/03/2020 at 10:24, Messyshaw said:

A political solution is the only way to protect them, their lives, homes and way of life. A 60m flying staircase won't do it

You are right Messy, but try telling Daily Mail reading armchair firefighters that!

On 07/03/2020 at 23:05, Keith said:

Leaving the politics aside, has anyone got a bit more information on the TL's?

Couldn't find very much out there, so first observations are based on the picture above. Looks very like a Magirus ladder on a Scania chassis with an odd axle layout. I would have expected a standard 8 x 4 layout with twin steering at the front rather than the rear steering axle behind the drive axles. Don't know how that layout would drive and manoeuvre round tight streets. 

Also don't see the need for the Hi-Viz paint job on the ladders, which looks decidedly odd as the ladders are normally not painted.

I'd be interested to hear what @Dot thinks about them.

The axle configuration is becoming popular with manufacturers, especially those who operate in an urban environment. The system is called 'Tridem' which operates a tandem rear drive arrangement with a rearmost steering axle. Now I know there will be places it cannot get into, and it will be down to the professionalism and good training (this will be signifciantly increased) of the 64m crews to get in where they can. But I drove it around Bloomsbury, Covent Garden and Waterloo last week, and I have to say it is very manoeuvrable. It has a very similar turn circle to a current ALP325 and that's 2m shorter in transport length. It's big, 30t, 12m long 4m high, but it handles and pulls nicely.... I wonder what TL drivers will think... 

I've covered the 'paint' in the main text. 

[Keith]

Thanks for the excellent insight @Dot

Did wonder about the axle configuration, outside of some specialist construction plant there's not many out there, even Magirus don't have it on their website, the 64m is on a 8 x 4. Hadn't considered the "paint" was to assist with the TL operations, thought it was to make the vehicle more visible on the road, which the general public will still ignore.

[BurtMacklin]

14 hours ago, Dot said:

lots of tech (line) rescue equipment and so on..

Pointless, unless the line training explicitly incorporates input on how to use this and regular training is made available. 

[Dot]

TL Operators will know what can be attached to their appliance and the capabilities of the equipment supplied with it but they will not set up line systems. FRU crews will have these capabilities assimilated into their Line training and they will then be able to utilise the TL into their work. 

I must admit I thought Facebook was the place for non-constructive comments. 

[BurtMacklin]

Well if it makes any difference I’d say  the same thing in uniform face to face 😂 the functionality is good and I genuinely look forward to both the initial input and regular maintenance of skills training with the aerial operators and the aerial appliances. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Carl
Quote removed as its a direct quote of the post above. Please see FAQ.

[Harve88]

Has it been confirmed which stations they will they be based out of yet?

[Aspire]

Wimbledon, Old Kent Road and Dagenham get the 64’s.

[Luminoki]

Not wanting to start a rant from some but how come one isnt going to the west of the service?

[Dot]

There isn’t a station they fit in at this time. PFI stations are perfect, but the poor west hasn’t got any yet. Wembley was too tight. Not ideal, but it’s how it is. 
 

Dot 

7 hours ago, BurtMacklin said:

Well if it makes any difference I’d say  the same thing in uniform face to face 😂 the functionality is good and I genuinely look forward to both the initial input and regular maintenance of skills training with the aerial operators and the aerial appliances. 

PM or email me at work Burt if you want more info and background, there’s stuff I can’t post here. Ta. 

[BurtMacklin]

Thanks dot appreciate the offer 👍🏻 line training aside, it looks like a decent truck!

[Keith]

1 hour ago, Dot said:

There isn’t a station they fit in at this time

🤣🤣

Wouldn't be the first time that it was decided that an appliance was being allocated to a station without someone actually going to measure it up first. Then when it actually arrives and doesn't fit, there's a lot of stand from unders. 

[Dot]

Not this time.... 😁