5 Riders

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Are any services out there still riding 5 on a pump on a regular basis? I know the LFB still ride 5 on single pump stations.

[HB2016]

Hampshire still (trying) to ride with 5 on rescue pumps - couple of stations doing self rostering trials at present with 4 though (one pump station). I believe two stations are running 5 on the first and two on the second Intermediate appliances.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Riding 2 on the intermediate appliances? 

[Luminoki]

Still 5 on all firsts in West Mids

[Bgjm21]

5 on the first and 4 on the second in Scotland, very occasionally 5 + 5.

[TandA]

Policy or reality?  Policy says 5 + 4 and 5 on single appliance stations, not so sure that is always reflected in reality from what I hear.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Good to hear a few services are still riding 5. Personal view is riding 4 is wrong. 

[Lumie]

5 on single appliances in London, 4 on each of two appliance:)

[HB2016]

@TrainHardFightEasy Yes, without going into boring detail I believe Rushmoor are running 5 on their P7 (Rescue) and 2 on the P6 (Intermediate). Not sure if it is first away for them though like it is at other stations that have intermediate appliances - they generally run 5 on P7 and 4 on P6 with P6 being first away...

[Keith]

Intermediate appliances? the mind boggles.

[AJ11]

Iwfrs riding min 4 during day but can ride 5. Min 5 at night. RDS can ride with 4

[HB2016]

@Keith They are appliances that can ride between 2-5 crew (as apposed to 4-6 on a regular appliance). They've proved pretty effective to be honest. They can get through smaller streets, are fast and have (albeit only one) 80m 22mm hose reel, 1300L tank, UHPL, Edraulic Cutters, spreaders and ram, etc etc they just loose the 135 and one seat.

[Keith]

Thanks for that @HB2016. Don't actually have a problem with smaller appliances for some of the reasons you've given as long as they're not glorified vans. It's not exactly something new either, going back 20 odd years, most of our RDS stations ran as second pumps, what we knew as "midi's" or "niner's" which were essentially what you have above, a slightly cut down version of a standard pump. Biggest restriction with them was they only carried 900 L of water. They were gradually phased out as there wasn't actually much cost saving when buying them and I'm guessing it's probably the same now or they may actually be more expensive as they don't use the standard body.

The big problem though is the crewing, what exactly are you supposed to do if you're riding with two? It can never be a safe system of work.😠

[Firefox1608]

The idea is that when riding with two it isn't treated as a normal pump - there's a selection of small incidents it can be deployed to by itself (small fires in the open, fire now out, AFAs, lock ins, etc.). Any other incident and it will respond alongside other appliances. It also has a different callsign (P5) when riding with two to differentiate it from a regular P6. At two stations in Hampshire, it is being run as part of a 7-person concept (5 on the P7 rescue pump and 2 on P5) that is looking at whether regular two pump jobs (domestic fires, rtc persons trapped small, lift rescues, etc.) can be dealt with using one less person. This has also meant adjusting tactical ventilation procedures to allow it to take place using 7 people - the external safety observer and covering jet operator roles being done by the same person. 

The minimum crewing on the two stations is therefore 7, riding 5 and 2. If there is 8 or more, the two vehicles can be ridden as 4+ and 4. This means on the Intermediate vehicle, the P5 callsign is changed back to P6 and it is treated as a normal pump again for that shift. 

Should probably mention as well, this 7-person system was part of a proposal by the two stations involved as an alternative to having each station downgraded to two trucks crewed during the day but only one at night.

[AJ11]

@Firefox1608 going slightly away from 5s but have you any knowledge of how crews are getting on with self rostering in your service? Pros and cons?

[TandA]

4 hours ago, Firefox1608 said:

This has also meant adjusting tactical ventilation procedures to allow it to take place using 7 people - the external safety observer and covering jet operator roles being done by the same person. 

The problem I have here is that any procedure should only be adjusted when it is proved, based on evidence,  to be insufficient or unnecessary.  This smacks of adjusting a safety critical procedure to fit in with the reduction in crewing.

[Keith]

Have to agree with TandA, adjusting safety critical procedures for this reason is just wrong. Also is 7 attending a house fire safe?

AJ11, lets not go slightly away, feel free to start another topic if you wish to discuss self rostering.

[HoldFast]

So if they are sending 7 firefighters to house fires and RTCs etc with 5 and 2? It sounds like it is performing the duties of a normal pump anyway? Only with 2 riders. Sounds like a way of sneaking through dangerous cuts to be honest. I assume the union are aware of this ‘trial’?

[Firefox1608]

22 hours ago, AJ11 said:

@Firefox1608 going slightly away from 5s but have you any knowledge of how crews are getting on with self rostering in your service? Pros and cons?

Lets just say that all those stations that are trialling self rostering have a long list of people wanting to transfer in. Certainly seems to be well received but I'm afraid I don't know any more than that.

3 hours ago, HoldFast said:

So if they are sending 7 firefighters to house fires and RTCs etc with 5 and 2? It sounds like it is performing the duties of a normal pump anyway? Only with 2 riders. Sounds like a way of sneaking through dangerous cuts to be honest. I assume the union are aware of this ‘trial’?

Yes, the union is aware. Part of their agreement for the trial was that the rescue pump would always be crewed with 5 at all times. 

[AJ11]

@Firefox1608 Thats interesting you say the rescue pumps will always be crewed with 5s. We got told you ride rescue pumps with 4.

We are still trying to maintain 5 on ours but have been told that you ride 4 on rescue pumps so that means we can too.

[HB2016]

@AJ11 I'm assuming that running min of 5 on a rescue pump is on the trial stations as apposed to generally. I don't know a great deal about the trial as I don't ride near those stations but I know Winchester ride a rescue pump with 4 (they are self rostered) they also jump the DIM and animal rescue. At my station we often ride 4 on the rescue pump but we have two appliances so we're always backed up immediately with another 4. We don't run our P6 with less than 4.

[Noddy]

And what happens when your appliance crewed by 2 arrives first at a house fire? 

[HB2016]

That appliance is going to be backing up the rescue pump generally. However, if it arrives first - even a hose reel to get water on and make a start is better than nothing being there at all. I don't know about other counties but the backup is always pretty close here. Whilst I am naturally in favour of having 4+ on the pump if it was the choice of nothing or an appliance with 2 then I'd take the 2.

Naturally the moral pressure to act thing comes up and it was a touchy point with the small fires vehicles (a bin fire, that then spreads to a house is a good example) but the P6 is a fully loaded appliance so although you've got no BA with 2, you have got solid fire fighting ability whilst your backup is on it's way. Having said all the above, I've never been in the position so I can't really comment and with that said I still prefer to be riding with a full crew.

It raises some interesting discussion for sure...

[Firefox1608]

The guaranteed riding with 5 is only at the two trial stations.

There’s a lot that 2 can do whilst awaiting a second appliance - thermal scanning/information gathering, making entry if doors are locked, getting a hose reel, safety and covering jet laid out, setting into a hydrant, pitching a short extension ladder, setting up the fan, setting up entry control... Essentially making sure that as soon as the next appliance turns up the BA crew can jump off and go straight in. Those 2 can obviously also make an attack on the fire, either direct with a jet through a window/door or indirectly using Cobra/UHPL. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’d much rather have two fully crewed trucks 24/7. However, if the choice is between one truck overnight or two trucks riding 5+2, I’ll definitely take the latter and make it work. 

[HoldFast]

So you think if a fully loaded appliance with a crew of 2 turns up first to a persons reported house fire with people screaming at them to do something, instead of grabbing a BA set and heading in, they’re going to look for a hydrant and start setting up entry control. I can’t see many firefighters in that situation not donning BA and heading in, which is exactly the situation that none of us want to find ourselves in. Yes it’s great to get an initial response and get some water on the fire and wait for further resources but it’s not always that simple. What if the next pump is ten minutes away? We have to look at the safety of firefighters first, because if we disregard that and something goes wrong then what use can we possibly be anyway.