UCLan / Post Fire Decontamination

[HoldFast]

After reading a post on Facebook earlier I thought I’d ask the question on here;

Does anyone think the ‘clean cab’ concept is a good idea? Is placing BA sets in the lockers and having to jump off and grab a set on arrival before donning up a step backwards? Would the extra 30 seconds or so make a difference? Would it end up being longer?

Vs keeping sets in the cab, but properly cleaning them after a fire before they go back on the pump? Can we be relied upon to clean them thoroughly enough? Or at all? Do we even have the capability on station to clean them properly?

How much attention do people actually pay towards cleaning up after a job? And I don’t just mean cleaning off the hose in the yard and washing the outside of the pump, I mean properly cleaning the cab, the seats, your gloves, your boots, your BA set, changing your fire kit when you should? Who cleans the TIC after compartment fire?? Or does it just get tossed back in the cab until the next job? Or until some school kid has a play with it at the next community event?

Is anyone/has anyone decided to get involved in the study that UCLan are conducting with the FBU on contamination and our working practices?

[Carl]

Ive had some discussions on this in the past month or so. I am led to believe a lot of pumps in Scotland adopt this method, Im not convinced.

As for cleaning on stations, no I don't think we have the correct facilities. I like many of the older ones on here, used to put car fires out without BA, something which is unthinkable now, so god knows what I have done to myself over the years. 😮

I would love to adopt the safe clean cab concept but I can see issues arising when you turn up to the job and its going well, small mistakes such as leaving a patch of skin bare on the PPE could happen, which then increases the risk of firefighters getting burned, plus a whole host of rushed decisions. 

It will not get fixed overnight and the FBU have highlighted it in recent editions of the magazine. 

[Messyshaw]

Why cant dirty sets - even those serviced on the fireground- be carried in lockers until properly cleaned at the station and returned to the cab?

Clean sets = cab for instant access

Dirty but serviced on site sets  = rear locker

[Carl]

Space is the big issue Messy. It would need some serious changes. I can only vouch for GMFRS but if a new bit a kit comes on the run, be it a small bag or a lamp, there is literally no room for it. We are striving for a standard stowage and have been for some years, but with different appliances it isn't as easy. Radical changes needed. 

Another issue is, most of us have seen the video with the station that has a dedicated BA Washing Machine, Sadly I doubt any UK FRS would install them. 

[Rory-495]

General rule of thumb on my watch is following a wear the set is placed to the side of the appliance or on the floor of the cab if it cannot be cleaned straight away. Following that it's a quick once over with the decon wet wipes to get as much contamination off as possible followed by a thorough clean back at station. 

That said, not all watches and stations will do that!

Funnily on this topic, the latest ops news bulletin by LFB had a dedicated topic on contaminants and an emphasis on not just cleaning ppe and BA, but also simple things like wiping down the seats and floors.

As Carl stated, we would also stow dirty BA in lockers in LFB if we had space. But given 3 sets are already in the lockers we wouldn't fit them! It does seem the Mk3 Mercedes have a lot of wasted storage area bit that's a whole different topic altogether!

[HoldFast]

I’ve seen some newer design of appliances that have 2 sets in the cab and 2 in the lockers, I assume with the idea of rotating clean and dirty sets from the cab to the lockers. I think it would make quite a difference but it won’t be a speedy roll out if it does happen.

A huge one for me is the culture surrounding the whole thing. Gone are the days of smoke eating obviously, but there is still an air of indifference towards dirty PPE, with some firefighters still priding themselves on having a blackened, dirty lid.

Rory it sounds like your watch has a good approach. It’s really great to read that people are taking it on board, but as you say until all watches on all stations adopt the same approach it’s an uphill battle.

Definitely wouldn’t ever fancy a car fire without BA. Fortunately those days were long gone when I joined but I was totally unaware of contaminants etc for the first couple of years I was in, and would take my dirty flash hoods home and stick them in the wash with all mine and the misses’ clothes. Not even something I would consider now. 

For the new new ones, is anything taught during the recruits course about it or is it just left for you to figure out for yourself?

[Becile]

We carry 2 sets of kit on our new AT appliances, and facilities to place,any dirty kit within bags stored outside of the cab. We operate a cleaner cab policy. BA sets are in the rear side lockers and any potential delay at incidents has not been noticed, coupled with pre alert at stations gaining us approx 30 seconds evens things out.

We have got a business case for the large washing machines at SHQ so that our hot wears can be accommodated. Got to get past the ££ guys though ! Also current BA sets have  fabric within the  straps which I understand the new generation wont.

We need to change our culture both on the fireground and back at station. For instance drying rooms/cabinets, clean/dirty routes into/around stations.Some is easily achievable, some not so.

[Carl]

6 hours ago, Becile said:

We need to change our culture both on the fireground and back at station. For instance drying rooms/cabinets, clean/dirty routes into/around stations.Some is easily achievable, some not so.

Agree 100% with above. This is exactly what the meeting was about I attended. The very reason for the topic both on here and on other social media is to highlight it. Of course, they come back and tell me how it should be done, after 23 plus years, I know what should be done, I just don't think we do it as well as we perhaps should.

[JonesMrJones]

Avon is cracking down on post wear decon at the mo. 

We have the decon kit bags and we now carry extra bags to bag up dirty kit after a dirty wear. Back to station and change kit. If you don't have spare you can go to stores and get the code for a lock up to get loaner kit. Only problem is, is that there is not much loaner kit left at the moment as its getting used more and more. 

Oh and one of the new stations has plans for a sauna (like the Swedes) built into it to sweat all the bad stuff out. If it ever comes to fruition is s different thing though. 

[DRMS3934]

In terms of volunteer stations, we have only recently been given appliances that have BA seats. These are pumpers, analogous to pumps in the UK. Prior to that, BA was in a locker and donned on-scene. The Scania urban pumpers have two sets in the cab, two on a mounting plinth in a locker. Spare cylinders are carried in purpose built hatches above the wheel arches.

The rural tankers that carry BA still have it in lockers, necessitating dismounting and donning.

Used cylinders are swapped for spares in the stowage. Usually we do a wash down of the set on scene, fit a new cylinder and back in service. Face masks are thoroughly decontaminated on station.

Contamination is becoming more of a topic here, so perhaps things will change again?

[HoldFast]

All, please see the following link to the FBU / UCLan survey on contaminants. The outcome of the survey will potentially influence future policies and working practices throughout the rest of your career so please take the time to get involved and have your say. All responses are anonymous and it takes approx 20 minutes to fill out.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Carl
Link embedded as per FAQ

[Keith]

If you haven't already completed the contaminants survey, please follow the link above. Survey is open until 3rd February.

[HoldFast]

As above please fill it in you haven’t already. Another 800 responses are needed to reach 10,000 which will give the study more credibility.

[HoldFast]

It was announced on Twitter earlier that the survey has surpassed 10,000 responses. We can now look forward to the results and recommendations that will follow. Well done everyone. But do keep ‘em coming!

[Healdav]

On 25/08/2019 at 01:39, HoldFast said:

After reading a post on Facebook earlier I thought I’d ask the question on here;

Does anyone think the ‘clean cab’ concept is a good idea? Is placing BA sets in the lockers and having to jump off and grab a set on arrival before donning up a step backwards? Would the extra 30 seconds or so make a difference? Would it end up being longer?

Vs keeping sets in the cab, but properly cleaning them after a fire before they go back on the pump? Can we be relied upon to clean them thoroughly enough? Or at all? Do we even have the capability on station to clean them properly?

How much attention do people actually pay towards cleaning up after a job? And I don’t just mean cleaning off the hose in the yard and washing the outside of the pump, I mean properly cleaning the cab, the seats, your gloves, your boots, your BA set, changing your fire kit when you should? Who cleans the TIC after compartment fire?? Or does it just get tossed back in the cab until the next job? Or until some school kid has a play with it at the next community event?

Is anyone/has anyone decided to get involved in the study that UCLan are conducting with the FBU on contamination and our working practices?

About 45 years ago in the RN it was decided that there would be a User/Cleaner system. As the order put it, "When a man knows he will have to sit on a seat, it gives him extra interest in decontaminating it properly"!

[HoldFast]

@Healdav I wish that worked in the fire service

[E.B]

Halmstad Sweden..

 

[Keith]

Report has been released, full details and link to report available on the FBU site:

Urgent Action Needed

Minimising Firefighters Exposure

[Becile]

Being part of the project team for our service on contaminants, and having digested this yesterday, theres no real surprises, cultural change needed , and investment in stations etc.

A good report though that hopefully will give some direction to those that require it  with the added force of FBU, hopefully the NFCC workstreams and reports say exactly the same.

Coincidentally we started our install of 2 x dedicated BA washing wachines this week  which will  see over the year all ba sets, masks etc receive deep clean.

[NickW]

All new appliances in Scotland (scanias) have a slide out on each side behind the cab for 2 BA sets each side. The old arguments are getting tired about the delay in getting your set on etc.  By the time all the equipment is off the pump set up you easily have enough time to get donned. Honestly,got to look at the long term effects of contaminants. Look at the swedes in the above clip, also the dutch, we are about 10 years behind.

[Messyshaw]

13 hours ago, NickW said:

All new appliances in Scotland (scanias) have a slide out on each side behind the cab for 2 BA sets each side. The old arguments are getting tired about the delay in getting your set on etc. 

Yawn! Tired arguments indeed!!

I agree @NickW. I remember the same type of rhetoric about seat belts (having no time to wear one, getting caught up in them, delays etc) and the use of BA on car fires (?hat? Outside in the open air???)

Touch wood I will achieve 11 years of 'retirement' after Xmas. I am on a Retirees FB Group and trust me, cancer is sweeping through ex firefighters. If there is any chance in reducing the risk of this out of control carcinogenic  inferno, then it must be grabbed. The time for throwing dirty BA and kit in cabs, and scrubbing contaminated tunics with a bass broom before hanging the stinking garment in the drying room, must be confined to the history books with slate rips and brass helmets 

[WTTJ]

The problem I've found is that is has to be all or nothing. I've not been in that long compared to most and so cleanliness, de-contamination and washing has been drummed into me from day one. However I frequently will get back on the truck after a job, my firekit is bagged and in the pump bay, with my BA set, to keep the cab clean. Then my oppo who has been in 20+ years climbs in the otherside, puts his dirty set behind his seat, still in full fire kit. When we get back to station, he probably won't put it in for washing or clean his BA set properly because he's never had to. Renders my efforts redundant.

[LJ King]

Morning all,

I've just been reading through this thread and wondered if any of you would like to help. I am a health and fitness correspondent for FIRE Magazine and I've been asked to follow up on the recent UCLan report on minimising firefighters' exposure to toxic fire effluents.

I would like to hear opinions from firefighters who have completed the survey or fire personnel who have been involved in the report. If you have an opinion on any of the following questions please get in touch: How does your station currently organise decontamination processes? Do you feel there is room for improvement? Have you been trained in the long-term effects of fire effluent exposure to your health? Have you been diagnosed with any health conditions that you believe are directly related to your occupation? These are just some examples; if there is anything else you think is worth mentioning, please get in touch.

This is a ground-breaking report for the UK Fire Service and the protection of long-term health and safety for our firefighters.

Many thanks,

Lorna King

[Becile]

WTTJ, Sorry your OIC needs to take some responsibilty here if that happens,  its everyones responsibility , but they are in charge and need to take charge of that if not happening. Try arguing that on duty of care !!

I hope you are also Bold enough to take him or her to task, surely that 20 yr ff would want the most from his hard fought pension, and that that of his fellow ffs

[BrianH]

On 25/08/2019 at 01:14, Carl said:

Space is the big issue Messy. It would need some serious changes. I can only vouch for GMFRS but if a new bit a kit comes on the run, be it a small bag or a lamp, there is literally no room for it. We are striving for a standard stowage and have been for some years, but with different appliances it isn't as easy. Radical changes needed. 

Another issue is, most of us have seen the video with the station that has a dedicated BA Washing Machine, Sadly I doubt any UK FRS would install them. 

Have a look at Tyne & Wear Carl, clean cab policy introduced 1st Dec, we carry 2/3 BA sets on cab and 2 in side locker, after a job they get swapped around so no dirty sets in cab, New appliances have dedicated BA boxes for dirty sets and a dedicated dirty locker for firekit, BA set washing machines that also clean helmets (no pun) are getting purchased too, gas detectors in cab to monitor air quality. A dedicated Contaminants lecture/ training package is delivered on BA training days to get the culture changing too, small steps but important ones 👍👍