Watch Manager Shifts / Activities

[Gerald]

Hi all,

My Service has got the whispers going around about “big” changes in the future, especially in terms of the WM role.

juat wanted to know what other services are doing with WM’s. Are they still riding, do they do days only etc? 

Any answers greatly appreciated.  

[Gerald]

No-one?! This was a pre-warned pre-armed question. No hidden agenda...

[Carl]

I didn't know how to answer your post if I am honest.

However, I along with what I suspect every other FRS in the UK still has rider WMs and they do the same shift as the FFs and CMs? We don't have WMs who do days, unless of course they are in Fire Safety etc. 

I think you may need to elaborate on what the "whispers" of "big changes" are. Are we to presume your service is looking at removing WMs from doing nights and riding the pumps.? 

[Gerald]

It’s been thrown out there that some services have CM’s  in charge of the day to day (shift) activity, with a couple of WM’s per station. The whispers and hints dropped by management are vague and just wanted a rough idea of it was still rider WM’s mostly? 

[Carl]

Our 2 pumps stations have a WM in charge of the 1st pump and a CM in charge of the 2nd pump. The one pump stations all have a WM and a CM who rides in the back. However, if the WM is off, or has to provide cover at another station, then the CM will be in charge. The CM very rarely rides in the back as there is always someone wanting a day off somewhere. 

In relation to incidents, the nearest pumps are still mobilised and this would include the required white hat where required. On the rare occasion that 2 CMs could be sent to a property fire, a Flexi SM would be mobilised.

[Becile]

Gerald, this was looked into by our brigade as in theory you can survive at incidents and on station with just CM riding as they are level 1 commanders and you can save money by just employing CM. There is a difference in WM and CM  required skills which from memory is discipline. This was linked to the removal of station managers ( which we tried like many other services and realised it didn' t work !!) The plan was to make 2 WM basically run the station(on days ) but not neccesarily ride the pump.( give a % extra pay)

This was never progressed thankfully, yes on paper it saves money.....but it doesn't/ didn't work in reality.

So we run exactly as Carl explained, there are lots of changes we have made in the name of "change" and no doubt many more to come, but as the saying goes, if it aint broke.

[Gerald]

Hmm...suspect that’ll be the model then. Is anywhere using it, or other variants? And this would be about right, everyone re-inventing the wheel with a square. 

[Jet]

So you’ve got to pay the WM’s more because they essentially do the job of a SM and if I was a CM I’d be demanding more pay due to me now having the operational responsibility of a WM. Yeah I can definitely see how that saves money. Utter nonsense! 

[Becile]

Jamiejet ..you dont HAVE to pay tbe WM more but that was what was proposed as a carrot as they would only be working days ( which might have suited some !) I hate to say it mate, there is no difference to operational responsibility...A level one commander is a level 1 commander regardless of rank..has the same operational requirements and training, only difference is the station management and discipline elements. We've been through that whole scenario including, union involvement, national standards, role maps etc..demanding more pay..not going to happen ! as there's nothing new that shouldn't be being done under the role maps for a CM.  I'm not saying I agree with it, that' just the way it is.To be clear- this wasn't progressed in our service.

As for potential savings...its 2 x WC salaries and all the on costs PER station, which I hate to say is a significant amount of money, and over even a small brigade like ours potentially runs into the £ millions.

[Jet]

Thing is, there is an endless list of initiatives you can employ to save £millions, that is if you have absolutely no qualms about demoralising and degrading your existing workforce. I can’t imagine being a WM and being told suddenly that my days of riding a pump are now over and I’m being consigned to what is essentially an admin role. 

And what also scares me is the idea that you can feasibly have two CM’s with less than 5 years experience between both of them being in charge of a serious job until the arrival of a SM 

[Becile]

Jamie..I'm not disagreeing with you in any way...morale is at an all time low.

Any change in shift would need to be negotiated so being told immediately is highly unlikely. Normally you would ask for volunteers...when the service did the ground work, there were plenty of WM willing to make the move!

I understand your worry, but competence in role is competence! However it is deemed within your service- Regardless of time in generally ! Some CMs are way more effective than WM..you can make WM in the same time...so the same applies in effect.

We also have some limited operational experienced SM/GM...does that worry you too?...it does me...exposure to incidents is becoming less and less ( just read some of Steve' s posts ?) so will increase over time..this is where chosing people at all ranks by what can be a paper based process falls down in my opinion.

[OscarTango]

Gerald we have very recently had rumblings about this, odd that you mention it. Currently there is a review going on, with WMs having to undergo "development courses", the content of which im not too sure about. Since we have had self rostering we now have one WM per station, and as we no longer have formal watches the remaining crew managers are usually in charge of whatever duty crew is on.

It is now being looked at that we take WMs away from riding the pumps have them more a remote role essentially like the old SMs. Still very much a spinning plate though...

[Gerald]

Thanks for all the replies. I’m a rider WM myself at the moment, and I am gutted to think this role will end. In my service it is nearly all single pump stations.

Been trying to do some research and the only couple of things I find is Hants FRS doing watch Manager incident support officers? Is there anyone West Mids who can comment on WM roles there?

[Luminoki]

WMs are still riding trucks in West Mids, not heard any rumours of that changing. I think Warks trialled it for a while but WMs would respond in a marked car. Not sure if they still do it now though

[Cashybai]

There was a rumour a while back that Leics were going to non riding Wm's , they'd attend in a marked car if the incident needed it..No proposals for it in London afaik...

[Percy]

Cumbria do something similar to this (or were doing) and have done for a few years and I think a couple of Stations in East Sussex either have it or at least trialled it. 

Having been involved in designing alternative crewing options for 3 years there are dozens of different models that could be implemented and it’s not always due to cost.

The days of a one cap fitting all and the individual having to fit to it regardless of personal circumstances are over and gladly so IMHO.

Having been encouraged to provide various working options for staff in the Bain report, the Knight report and the Thomas review you can bet that HMICFRS will want to see just that considering Bain was in 2002.

[Dyson]

To be honest, it just makes me sigh out loud.....its so boring. A Watch need a WM, to been duty with them They are completely accountable to the Brigade for that Watch and equally are the leader of that team, looking after everything from behaviour, to welfare, to of course resolving operational incidents. 

You wanna take them off the lorry? ......Why?

If that lorry is already riding 4 (often the case), then you have to employ someone else to keep at minimum, increase watch strength just so you can put the WM in a car, which you also have to supply.....why? 

jeeeeeeesus!

[HB2016]

On 29/03/2018 at 18:17, Gerald said:

Thanks for all the replies. I’m a rider WM myself at the moment, and I am gutted to think this role will end. In my service it is nearly all single pump stations.

Been trying to do some research and the only couple of things I find is Hants FRS doing watch Manager incident support officers? Is there anyone West Mids who can comment on WM roles there?

I am in Hants and we still very much work under the existing setup of WM riding first away etc... Yet to hear or see a WM as a support officer. The only change we've had is instead of Level 1 commander, level 2, 3 etc we now have ICS Initial commander (ICS qualified FF, CM, WM) and then intermediate commander (SM, GM) so instead of mobilising just a SM as a L2 then GM for L3, you can just get whoever is available SM or GM as your tactical advisor.

I don't think any of our workforce would support the idea either.

EDIT: To say that we currently have a LOT of temporary managers at the moment! WM > SM and SM > GM maybe that's where it's got confused somewhere?

[TandA]

Essex still have rider WMs.  We also have an operational difference in levels of responsibility.  Although both WM and CM are L1 ICs, a WM is able to run up to 4 but    a CM or CM acting up to WM can only run 2 or a L2 IC is mobilised too.

[Br9mp81]

the problem is that in order to appear to be saving money they (bean counters) spend money,money that is basically wasted.

[HB2016]

On 12/06/2018 at 16:22, TandA said:

Essex still have rider WMs.  We also have an operational difference in levels of responsibility.  Although both WM and CM are L1 ICs, a WM is able to run up to 4 but    a CM or CM acting up to WM can only run 2 or a L2 IC is mobilised too.

Interesting how things vary so much from service to service. Our ICS Initial commanders (ICS qualified FF, CM and WM) all run up to 4 pump incidents and get a TAC advisor for critical incidents and will only take over if you let it go to rat...

[Matt]

Lincolnshire don't have WM on pump on the day crewing stations, they may often be based on station but don't go out to everything.

[Keith]

13 hours ago, 5iveone said:

Interesting how things vary so much from service to service. Our ICS Initial commanders (ICS qualified FF, CM and WM) all run up to 4 pump incidents 

No problem with a WM running a 4 pump call, questionable for a CM, but definitely not a FF no matter what courses they have. This has to be a recipe for disaster. 

Can you imagine the field day our legal friends would have if something goes wrong and you have a FF in charge and somebody of higher rank there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers when you needed a qualified FF to be BA team leader on the pump, but now we're happy to have them run a 4 pump job?

[HB2016]

May I ask why? (I'm not being contentious just eager to hear all views). Our L1's, CM and WM all have to have the same input and same command assessments yearly to ensure they are competent.

Generally speaking, although they can remain in charge - They almost always hand over to the oncoming CM/WM. If it is a multi pump PDA rather than a make up - they'll tend to impliment initial actions, begin information gathering etc if first in attendance ready to give to the CM/WM. A L2 officer is mobilised anyway so they are essentially overseeing and advising and will take over if necessary which will prompt the mobilisation of an advisor for them...

Good discussion point - I don't disagree with you but I think it comes down to how that competence is achieved and maintained regardless of impellars and stripes.