Cutting Away and Cancer Risks

[MDT]

Cancer deaths in the US are rising at an alarming rate, it is unknown at what rate UK fire fighters are facing, no study appears. 

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/firefighters/ffcancerstudy.html

What is apparent is the lack of awareness to the huge risks to exposure after the fire is extinguished and the level of protection afforded during the cutting away / overhaul phase.

This should become as notable as the introduction of BA to firefighters health and safety, apart from retrospective BA cartridges that make breathing difficult I know of no other steps taken to reduce this risk. 

This is how serious Drager consider the issue. 

[TandA]

UK figures show ffs are almost twice as likely to be diagnosed with certain types of cancer as a comparable member of the general public.  Testicular cancer is one such cancer and given that it was previously known as “Chimney sweep’s cancer”, it doesn’t take much of a leap of faith to conclude there has to be some as yet undiscovered link to soot or smoke or fire gases or something. I know about testicular cancer from personal experience and am aware that in the US and a number of other countries it is considered an occupational disease for firefighters.  The UK lags in that respect.  Since I had mine, I now treat taking precautions in the post fire stage much more seriously and am constantly banging on at my crew to do the same but we don’t as yet have some of the drager recommended items to allow their full decor process routinely.

[MDT]

Thanks for sharing that mate, interesting that testicular Cancer was referred to as that, as you say it doesn’t require to much join the dots. 

A simple paper dust mask would make a significant difference at post fire stage I’d of thought, unfortunately LFB took these out of service and replaced them with cartridges for BA facemasks which a restricting when breathing and laborious in procedure. 

Manchester seem to be ahead on this and appear to have particle filter facemasks at use outside of hazard zones at jobs. 

This should be a national issue it will be to late in 20 years time when we look back and say ‘ yes, why did we do that ? ‘

[Noddy]

You won’t catch me digging out a scene without my respirator on. 

[Steve]

I really worry what is in store for my generation. In the late 80's up to the late 90's, BA had obviously and necessarily improved from the 'smoke eater days' because no one could survive more than a few seconds without BA. However, external firefighting including cars and rubbish fires were all fought up close without BA as well as some internal but well ventilated fires such as derelict buildings where it was more structure (wood and so on) opposed to contents on fire.

I had the best part of over half of my career breathing in sh1t on the basis that if you could survive in the moment (i.e. smoke was external, or you could duck/hold your breath momentarily) then BA wasn't required. Thankfully as we became Officers and leaders ourselves, we called a halt to the nonsense and I'll not have that on my conscience for those who were under my command.

I don't think about it too much, but It’s a bit of a lottery as to what will happen in the years after I retire. I can only pray it hasn’t done any lasting damage.

[MDT]

I’ve taken a lot of crap, cars in underground car parks in particular, makes me winse to think of it these days. 

Standard SOP to go into jobs with tubing until relieved by BA crews, thankfully that carry on has ceased. 

The risk from cutting away is still there and the lack of hygiene after a job. I really don’t think LFB respirators address the issue, they are to cumbersome and policy heavy to get to work, hence why I’ve not once see them deployed.  

People are reluctant to use them and if you’ve ever tried one on you’d understand why. 

There needs to be a point between this. 

[Jet]

I was cutting away at a fire recently and was so glad of my personal issue respirator. I am still at a loss as to why LFB and any other services don’t issue them! Between the cumbersome nature of using respirators with a BA face mask and the insistence of entry/cordon control with their use, is it any wonder they are never used in LFB?

[MDT]

Nail on head JJ. 

We should not be having to rely on personal issue dust masks to mitigate our workplace exposure. 

Might start a # tag on it ?

[Messyshaw]

When I started in the late 1970s the smoke eating attitude was almost literally dying off, helped by the fact that CA BA was easier to service than proto.

But BA was only worn when it was not possible to enter any other way. There were no comfort wears and as Steve says, almost never for cars and rubbish. 

Almost 20 years later, I was  WM at a busy station. We had an epidemic of car fires and could easily get 10 over the 2 night shifts - more at weekends. I saw a FF coughing her lungs out on one routine car job.

At that second I thought about the cumulative effect on a body that a small but regular lungful will have over a 30 year period. We stopped dealing with car fires without BA immediately and the threshold when to don BA was reduced. It was tough. My watch resisted and there were tears and loud arguments.

But I never considered cutting away or wearing dirty fire gear. It' s clear now that the same cumulative effect of these uncontrolled practises must put health a risk and I am delighted this is now being discussed. 

Can anyone tell me what the FBU position is and if they are campaigning  re this issue?. Plus where FFS have bought their own respiratory protection, how does that go down on the foreground? I can imagine some officers not allowing it.

So I would say to everyone, get talking about this and sharing that video is a good start. Probably like you, I am rather attached to my testicles and would prefer it to stay that way!!

[TandA]

The FBU are campaigning on this.  They have issued advice and campaign materials around minimising your exposure to contaminants, including the need to get out of dirty kit immediately and the idea that if it smells even slightly smokey then it is contaminated.  The days of smelling smoke on kit in the bay for days after a proper working job should be numbered but to be honest we are our own worst enemies as we all know ffs who are reluctant to put on a mask and gloves etc or are slow to put kit out for laundry.

Messy - you are ok mate.  Not sure how to break this to you gently  but Testicular cancer tends to be a young man’s game.  If you reach 45 -50 without an issue then you are almost certainly in the clear (though don’t abandon the self checks).  If you are susceptible to it as a ff it also seems to take about 10 years of a firefighting career to develop on average.  There must be a genetic predisposition that is then kicked into life by exposure to toxins or something we face. 

And of course it isn’t only one cancer we need to worry about.  We need to be aware of many more - lung, bladder, kidney, skin and asbestosis for starters.

[OscarTango]

How many Brigades issue personal respirators and what sort? We've just had ours issued to be used whereever there is a risk of airborne nasties. Were using them in place of dust masks at RTCs too. 

Now we carry our BA in the lorry and not the cab it's an absolute faff to get rigged quick and I worry the attitude of "not to bother " will creep in at things like car or rubbish fires. Not saying they are a replacement but having a quality respirator immediately to hand at least massivley reduces your exposure if you need to get a jet to work while your mates getting rigged.

[Jet]

Thankfully GMC have not gone down the route of having sets in the lockers with our new cab conversions. As the saying goes, ‘out of sight, out of mind’. 

[TandA]

@Messyshaw - Link to FBU campaign on this

[Messyshaw]

9 hours ago, TandA said:

Messy - you are ok mate.  Not sure how to break this to you gently  but Testicular cancer tends to be a young man’s game.  

Thanks a bundle T&A, but I am only 35 mate -  honestly (or 22 when I have had a drink!! )

Anyway, mine are more decoration than operational these days  

[Stevie_Nottm]

On 11/14/2017 at 18:35, TandA said:

UK figures show ffs are almost twice as likely to be diagnosed with certain types of cancer as a comparable member of the general public.  Testicular cancer is one such cancer and given that it was previously known as “Chimney sweep’s cancer”, it doesn’t take much of a leap of faith to conclude there has to be some as yet undiscovered link to soot or smoke or fire gases or something. I know about testicular cancer from personal experience and am aware that in the US and a number of other countries it is considered an occupational disease for firefighters.  The UK lags in that respect.  Since I had mine, I now treat taking precautions in the post fire stage much more seriously and am constantly banging on at my crew to do the same but we don’t as yet have some of the drager recommended items to allow their full decor process routinely.

As a survivor of Testicular cancer, discovered in Autumn 2008, after only two years in the Service, with a Watch Manager also having been a recent survivor and my Training School gaffer having also survived, amongst such a relatively small group, I found that statistically worrying. I was 36 at diagnosis. The other two guys I describe were in their mid and late 40's.

I read at the time that in New Zealand, they considred Firefighting and TC a direct link, something like 2.9x more likely than any other profession, and IIRC, they made regular checks.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Stevie_Nottm
additional info

[TandA]

There are, or seem to be an unexpectedly high number of TC survivors in the service.  A male in the UK has approximately a 1 in 190 lifetime chance of TC.  I suspect, but can’t prove, that the Fire service has more than its fair share.  You know  4, I know 3 and I suspect there are others who don’t make it public.  Seven in just the small percentage of ffs we know well enough to know that about them seems high, though I recognise statistics are such a funny thing that clusters will occur even within a completely normal sample population.  I think it needs more research and someone to keep proper records.

[Firefant]

The uk are lagging behind the Scandinavian countries in this. I think it’s Norway, who if they’ve had a ba job get a “decon” unit out which deep cleans their BA sets. Their fire kit gets taken away at the scene too so they don’t have to drive back to base with it on. Once back in base they get into saunas with exercise bikes in to sweat it out. 

Personally, I insist my crews carry big plastic kit bags in their helmet bags. If we get a ba job I book off the run as we are mobile returning. Ba sets go in the lockers. Ppe in the bags. Then it’s a full ba strip and clean. New ppe. Helmet gets a thorough clean and they have showers before I book us back on. It’s not enough but I’m hoping it helps my crew. Mind you, Control do get a bit annoyed. 

[Carl]

This post may be the one you are referring to @Firefant in respect of BA Set cleaning.

[Firefant]

Yeah Mate. That’s the one. Thank you

[Cashybai]

From a personal point of view, The use of cartridge respirators on facemasks is a no-no, simply because the difference in requirements between full BA wear and the cartridge respirators is negligible: In essence if you fit the criteria for a respirator, you may as well go the whole hog and wear a set, that's certainly the view amongst most watch managers I know. Back to kit cleaning, The Scandinavian model is for me gold standard, rightly or wrongly, as things stand I can't see it being fully implemented in the UK, purely due to personnel/appliance/equipment numbers, It doesn't seem feasible with current funding protocols.

[HoldFast]

Firefant I think thats a brilliant approach and it’s a shame more people don’t do the same. I can’t believe that in 2018 the level of apathy we have towards cleaning kit. I try and do my bit with cleaning my set after a job, cleaning the back of the cab out and cleaning/changing my PPE but it seems like an uphill battle at times. A station I worked at a few years ago would even store the dirty kit on the floor in the muster bay next to the newly delivered clean kit!

[MDT]

At least we are talking about it here, on stations and at HQ’s not so much. 

It really does frustrate me that this is over looked or put in the ‘ to hard to do’ pile. 

HFRS have made the simple introduction of cleaning wipes to front line appliances to enable crews to decon the contaminants from when working at the scene of an incident. 

London do not even have this simple first step to cleaning this crap of one another, Trans co, AA, RAC, Nation Grid & electrical service vehicles to name but have a this provision but the 4th largest Fire and Rescue service can’t even get its act together and put a tube of wipes on board. 

It is not good enough to stick your head and hands under the deliverys any longer, we’re better than that, or should be. 

So we continue to expose crews to known contaminants without providing reasonable steps to clean which is contrary to H&S regulations. 

[HoldFast]

I understand that it takes a lot of time and money to implement new procedures and would be difficult to change post incident behaviour (although not impossible), but it’s a shame that with the knowledge and information available today, that more importance is not put on preserving the health of firefighters. If we are talking about it on here, and people have solutions to problems and are already implementing them at lower levels, it’s unacceptable that something isn’t being done officially and on a national scale. The information is there, why ignore it? Because there are more cost effective things that are deemed a priority? It shouldn’t be that it’s simply left to ff’s to try and follow FBU guidance as best as they can with what they’ve got. Does anyone else have a more effective or practical way of cleaning a BA set other than ‘giving it a wipe’? And that’s the parts of the set you can get to, never mind the rest.

Apologies if this seems like a moan, and to those who have been in the job for years and years, I know this information wasn’t always available. Just seems that we are so far behind and it’s a real shame.

[MDT]

The employers first responsibility towards their employees is their health and safety whilst they are carrying out their duties. 

If it known that products of combustion are carcinogenic then RPE alone is not good enough, certain FRS that are not meeting COSSH regulations are wide open to litigation  

Never mind that Derma wipes provide the first step in mitigation against carcinogenic material from ones person, they should be there to wipe blood, crap, oils and what ever fire fighters come into contact with of off them, which there is not.

During the CoRo trails participanting stations had to visit and beg and borrow sterilisation wipes from ambulance stations.

Hygiene packs for female FF’s were rightly put onto appliances without a fuss, there should be no reason why simple derma wipes cannot be. 

[Carl]

On 15/11/2017 at 22:39, Steve said:

I don't think about it too much, but It’s a bit of a lottery as to what will happen in the years after I retire. I can only pray it hasn’t done any lasting damage.

Quite a thought provoking comment to be honest and I agree with you 100%. Ive had a good think about this over the past few months and do feel responsible for my watch, as I should of course. I have always took my pump off the run after a job as I have never been a fan of cleaning a set and rinsing off at the job in preparation for the next. Chances are we will end up going to the hospital on an AFA all full of shit. 

Im going to step this up further to be honest and insist the pump is cleaned and everyone showered on return to station. Im sure it will not go down well with certain quarters but I will certainly feel better and more responsible for my crews.