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Riding as OiC


Jet

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Yes...we do with nearly all our specials.I.e water carriers, unimogs.off road jeeps, prime movers, environment units. Ideally a rank but not necessarily.due to our specials alternatively crewed...ie a one pump station with crew of 4 will have a pump and 2 specials, so crew may crew 2 specials rather than the pump if incident requires 

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So is there a difference between simply riding as a passenger in the front as opposed to being the designated OiC? In LFB there are appliances that can turn out with just a driver such as an Operational Support Unit (Lorry) or prime mover. They can have a second crew member but I don’t believe they act as an OiC.

I know from a legal/police point of view the driver is responsible for the vehicle but we all know in fire brigade policy it’s the OiC who’s in charge of it, from a non driving perspective. Should FF’s be holding this responsibility without the recognition of at least a temporary rank?

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What responsibility first off? And secondly, I'm sure they were responjsible enough to get their car to work, pay their mortgage, look after their kids etc.... I can't see why an officer would need to be in charge as they are not required to attend anything on their own so will not have to make command decisions.

One could also have argued the same for old TL's before modern aerials and their cage operator requirements. Coming across an incident could also be seen to be within their capabilities as it would a Ff in uniform doing any outside duty in public without an officer.

As you say, the driver is responsible for the roadgoing vehicle, so with no crew and no command role for the motor I don't see the point of throwing rank at it.

Which brings me onto another rant (for a different topic) why oh why does the Fire Service have to throw rank at everything. Any specialist job, any vehicle... the list goes on. Staff in the police and Ambulance seem to cope very well with PC's running teams, training, vehicles.... why don't we just pay ARA's and not have to have Officers do eveyrthing???

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This is why I posted the topic Steve, I’m undecided if there should be a rank in charge of such appliances or not. You are right that at an incident you would not be fulfilling a command role, and having a temporary rank would also open you up to the responsibilities of an officer on station, when really you’re only needed to be ‘in charge’ of an appliance if and when it turns out. I’ve always had it in my mind that in most predictable situations in the fire service, there has to be someone in charge (from a brigade perspective, not because firefighters can’t possibly function without a leader). Certainly if a WM on station gets a shout and leaves behind a pumps crew that’s OTR awaiting a CM then who’s in charge of the station?? xD

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Our Rescue Tender has a number one and a driver. The No1 on the RT can be a FF providing they are a qualified rescue technician (red helmet). That's the only requirement. The RT used to attend shouts as support with just the two riders but in recent times due to FF cuts we only have max 5/6 on duty so the pump also attends with the OIC riding on that. 

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I was the designated driver for our HVP a couple of tours ago on the night the warehouse went up on White Hart Lane in Tottenham.  

Due to lack of HVP qualified personnel that night our HVP was off the run.....or so we thought.

99.9% of HVP shouts require that the whole HVP crew attend, meaning that the DPL would also attend.

Around 23:00 hours I was ordered to drive our HVP to the incident to drop off a double hose body, and promptly return to my station so that our DPL could go back on the run (obviously with me not on station there wasnt enough riders to keep my station on the run, and another Ff on my watch came with me for Banksman purposes etc, so our DPL was two riders down).

The point is, at no point did it occur to me that neither myself nor my mate were not officers.  We were ordered to deliver equipment to a very large incident and that's what we did, no dramas and no questions.

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Im at an on call station which has two pumping appliances and DIM vehicle, same situation as described above if DIM is needed a minimum crew of 2 maximum 3  will ride of which doesn't require anyone to be an officer. 

Used to be booking mobile on the radio you'd designate one of the Ff as 'in charge' but with booking mobile on MDT now this has taken that away. The DIM is mobilised alongside a pumping appliance and will have been requested to attend an incident where there is already an OIC. 

Never caused an issue with a Ff's alone riding the vehicle, and if anything would probably cause appliance unavailability for the second truck at the station if you had to send an officer with the pump and the DIM. 

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It shouldn't be the case that there has to be an officer in charge in any of these circumstances, after all we are grown-up, trained firefighters. The issue I'm having is when you are specifically being designated as the officer in charge. To me that means (funnily enough) that I am the one in charge and thus have more responsibility than the driver or anyone else that's riding. I'm not just the no.2, the banksman, the companion/passenger etc etc.

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Our Brigade - Pumping Appliance has to have a JO in charge.

Specials - ideally a JO, if not a FF who has been assessed safe to ride can act up. If thats not possible a FF will be ordered to ride number 1. we can then add a FDS or pumping appliance to go with the special where thats appropriate.

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On 10/10/2017 at 21:17, Carefree said:

I was the designated driver for our HVP a couple of tours ago on the night the warehouse went up on White Hart Lane in Tottenham.  

Due to lack of HVP qualified personnel that night our HVP was off the run.....or so we thought.

99.9% of HVP shouts require that the whole HVP crew attend, meaning that the DPL would also attend.

Around 23:00 hours I was ordered to drive our HVP to the incident to drop off a double hose body, and promptly return to my station so that our DPL could go back on the run (obviously with me not on station there wasnt enough riders to keep my station on the run, and another Ff on my watch came with me for Banksman purposes etc, so our DPL was two riders down).

The point is, at no point did it occur to me that neither myself nor my mate were not officers.  We were ordered to deliver equipment to a very large incident and that's what we did, no dramas and no questions.

Oh...l so its your fault then!!!!! Poxy night I had there.

;)

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I am presuming that now you are in good old Manchester you have realised our specials are crewed by firefighters without an officer in sight. :o

This has been the way for years and to be honest has worked well. I used to ride the platform for years as a firefighter and on several occasions had to send an informative as the first appliance on scene. Very strange. 

You may have also noticed that instructors are firefighters also. This is something I always found quite interesting when teaching at the college. Many of those attending HVP Courses were officers (CM - SM) from training schools in respective FRS's and GMFRS sent FFs. I used to ask the officers "How are you going to maintain competency" knowing full well that not having their hands on the kit each and every day would be a barrier. 

For me the best people to operate kit are operators.

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43 minutes ago, Steve said:

Oh...l so its your fault then!!!!! Poxy night I had there.

;)

Yeah sorry Guv, we tried our best honest?

Seriously though, I think a crap night was had by (almost) all.

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