Hoarders

[Trevatanus]

Just watching the LFB programme, they have just attended a fire at a hoarders home.

Obviously there are records of people who hoard, if a fire is reported at a hoarders home, does the response in terms of number of appliances change?

[Noddy]

What records mate? My experience of jobs involving hoarders is that you find out its a hoarder when you can't open any doors whilst searching.  I don't recall ever going to such a job knowing it was going to be the case. 

[Trevatanus]

Just assumed that data would be shared from social services.

They showed on the programme tonight firefighters visiting a hoarder and assumed that the ones "on the radar" were recorded.

[Noddy]

Sorry yes if they are known then obviously crews are told on the way but for every one that is known there are loads other that are not.  When I was on the wagons I never knew I was going to one.

A known hoarder doesn't attract any more resources than otherwise in my brigade 

[Aspire]

Hoarders that we are made aware of and have visited will often have an entry on our Operational Risk Database on London. 

This will give a little additional information to appliance commanders and may include info such as where that person normally sleeps.

Whilst it attracts a normal attendance, if the info is available before, it may prompt the incident commander to take an extra consideration for additional resources as these fires tend to be resource intensive.

[TandA]

If known then we should be informed as part of the mobilising info but as others have said, for those that we know about there are many times more that slip totally under the radar.  Again, it wouldn't generate any more resources to fight the fire, but it may generate extra resource in terms of investigation and follow up as the person involved was known to be higher risk.

[Steve]

2 hours ago, Aspire said:

Hoarders that we are made aware of and have visited will often have an entry on our Operational Risk Database on London. 

This will give a little additional information to appliance commanders and may include info such as where that person normally sleeps.

Whilst it attracts a normal attendance, if the info is available before, it may prompt the incident commander to take an extra consideration for additional resources as these fires tend to be resource intensive.

What he said.... ^^^^

We've been pushing this with social services in Hackney, but they are not brilliant despite a lot of intervenion around fire risk for a range of vulnerabilities. If there are multiple calls it'll get extra anyway, but as Aspire says, as soon as the IC recognises what he or she has, from initila BA crew feedback, then the job is going to go to 6 or 8 in my recent experience just for BA and manpower.

[Cashybai]

Wot they both sed^^^  Camden's not been too bad for us with info on Hoarders, but there are the odd surprises out there.. a level 8-9 sitting tenant in a 5 star hotel springs to mind....

[Becile]

Ditto to our London colleagues, most of the boroughs (not all )and social work type attendances will feed into a central data base that filters into our MDT system for identification purposes. Does not necessarily attract a greater attendance just good info for risk assessment of tactics etc for ops crews.

there is a recognised clutter index for determining levels.

[HoldFast]

We have the known ones recorded on CFRMIS with tags such as 'heavily cluttered/fireloading that flag up as 'ops data' either through information from an advocate or social services and an SSRI is attached to the property which will be available on the MDT (should it work) when turning out. It will also usually advise a defensive approach (depending on resources) with main jets only and contain information such as location of the occupier (if they live in one particular room) and whether or not they are an oxygen user etc

Edited August 12, 2017 by JamesL

[Messyshaw]

I am sorry, I know I will not be popular, but I can't help that, when thinking about all the huge number of risks that firefighters face when handing their tallies in and entering a premises, IMO hoarding really doesn't seem to present a sufficient risk to keep 'records' on people's private addresses, and personal habits such as where they sleep. It also beggars belief that specialised procedures are needed for these premises, including a clutter rating system!!!

On the first matter: record keeping. Does the occupier have any say in this? Is permission sought from the occupier? Can they say no? Does the occupier receive a copy of the information held about them? and lastly, how is the record deleted when the hoarder moves or dies?

What next? The LFB keeping records on those with mental health  issues, but now being cared for in the community?

Perhaps those MH patients who regularly fail to take their medicine and might be rather volatile under stress? Former forensic MH patients who have been convicted or arson? I would argue that this latter group pose more risk of harm to BA crews than hoarding.

What systems are in place to protect this information? Health authorities, Local authorities and the Police all have strict codes of conduct regarding protecting sensitive & personal information.

This all sounds a bit over the top and Big Brother to me and for very little gain other than medals and plaudits for those who dreamed it up!

And please do not try and describe to me how hoarders live. I attended many fires in such premises. I have risked needlestick injuries, been covered in shit while rolling around in small gaps trying to move through a premises to search and been scared witless when I found a hoarder 'sleeping' in an upturned wardrobe hugging a bag of rubbish. So I do understand the operational challenges, but all of them can be adequately dealt with by using or adapting existing SOPs

[Becile]

Messy, 

The clutter rating system has been adopted so that there are benchmarks to relate to not just differing opinion on severity, it is helpful, honestly!

Like any safe and well visit the occupier can refuse to allow information to be taken/shared (they sign their agreement ) and an explanation on why (their health and well being ) and who it's being shared with.

The information like all data is covered under the data protection act.

We are able to get (limited)access to information on people who are vulnerable through MH etc but through a very strict protocol and only available in certain emergency situations (evacuation etc)this for us is done through the local resilince forum by agreement with all the agencies that input the data.So the systems you describe to protect the info are in place.

The procedures as you so rightly state may not differ from any normal household fire...but they might ! -given specific intelligence they  just remind the crews of some hazards that may exist. i.e. consider this/that.

Hope this helps.

[Noddy]

Spent all last night digging out at a hoarders, what a nightmare. Took me 3 hours to go through around just 4 square metres of fire debris 

 

[Firefant]

We work closely with our council. If, during a safe and well we discover the person is a hoarder we make it known. This info goes on to our MDT’s so crews know what to expect. 

As an example. We attended an afa last shift to an elderly gent unknown to us as being a hoarder. While sorting the issue we noted he was a hoarder. We now know he spends 90% of his day in the back room and that in case of a fire we go through the back gate. We also know that there is a big issue of the floor collapsing due to various tyres and engines upstairs. We have also increased the pda by a pump. 

Further to this social services keep us informed of any hoarders  

i feel this is a good thing as I can send my crews in with more info making us more effective