Breathing Apparatus

[Messyshaw]

London had a weird pump - unusually for the capital it had a water tender body with only room for a 9m (Dewhurst) ladder.  As far as I know, it was the only one and generally was used as a spare. It also only had mountings for BA sets in a rear locker. That was mighty unpopular.

I was not a fan as the sets were stored in a grubby side locker with a dubiously water resistant locker door. But more importantly, I wanted to don the set on en route and not faff about in the rain with flames licking out of the window. There was nothing anyone could say that would change my view............ until the recent contamination health issues were proven 

Now there's no place or excuse for grubby gear or uniform in the crew cab and until a BA washing machine (which do exist) is in place in every fire station, maybe it is time for clean and dirty areas. Maybe when there are widespread BA waters available there can be a dirty locker to bring the kit home and then it goes in the clean crew cab. But that won't happen any time soon

The fire service community - despite widespread use of BA when compared to when I joined - is still losing too many FFs to cancer. Its an epidemic so something has to be done. Establishing and maintaining SSOW and especially clean and dirty zones is essential 

[Navigator]

The best trucks I've worked on have a clean cab principle, 2 sets in the No 3/4 seats, two in a side locker. After a dirty job its a case of swapping the sets, dirty ones in the side and clean in the cab for the way back. 

Rocking up to a going person's without a set on my back is the stuff of nightmares for me personally.

[Steve]

On 11/03/2024 at 23:11, Messyshaw said:

London had a weird pump - unusually for the capital it had a water tender body with only room for a 9m (Dewhurst) ladder.  As far as I know, it was the only one and generally was used as a spare. It also only had mountings for BA sets in a rear locker. That was mighty unpopular.

I was not a fan as the sets were stored in a grubby side locker with a dubiously water resistant locker door. But more importantly, I wanted to don the set on en route and not faff about in the rain with flames licking out of the window. There was nothing anyone could say that would change my view............ until the recent contamination health issues were proven 

Now there's no place or excuse for grubby gear or uniform in the crew cab and until a BA washing machine (which do exist) is in place in every fire station, maybe it is time for clean and dirty areas. Maybe when there are widespread BA waters available there can be a dirty locker to bring the kit home and then it goes in the clean crew cab. But that won't happen any time soon

The fire service community - despite widespread use of BA when compared to when I joined - is still losing too many FFs to cancer. Its an epidemic so something has to be done. Establishing and maintaining SSOW and especially clean and dirty zones is essential 

Going right off topic here... But @Messyshaw, you must mean the 'Bread Vans'. The two/three Dennis D's LFB were somehow talked into. This is probably the very one, seen here at North Kensington your old station, quite late on as it's been converted for a 135 and roof ladder, so 1986 in this image I'd say... there was another, a N reg. Looking at the photos I have there is P489D and P491D, so there may well have been a third (P490D)??

I think they were gone before I joined in '87, but I do remember visiting Poplar (as I may have from time to time as a teenager) and seeing one in the bay with everyone complaining bitterly about it. I've seen photos of it/them at A29, B23 and J29 I seem to recall.

[OscarTango]

Spent more mental energy on this subject than is reasonable and actually quite tired of it but BA sets remaining in the cab will be my odd hill to die on. 

We can (and should) manage cab contaminants. BA sets removed the truck body doesn't do as much to to remedy that if we don't have a locker for all contaminated gear, PPE included. While at the same time it robs us of a few operational advantages of having them where they are. 

Another one to add to the list came to me at a job lately: came through as a chimney fire which on arrival had smoke logged the building and was spreading behind wall panelling.

So BA it was. Not rigging on route required. But there was my set behind me ready to go, which I was thankful for due to some very animated members of the public outside, one of which who had decided then was the perfect time to go on a rant about how racist we all were and get in the faces of crew who were outside the appliance. Im grateful I didn't have to contend with getting rigged from a side locker in the dark with this person going full space invader while I had a job to do.

Back on topic: I've noticed LFB have the new MSA sets that don't seem to use the grotty old cylinder sleeves. How are they do clean versus the current Draeger sets?

[LFB92]

Never understood why BA sets aren’t collected at the job and taken away to be properly cleaned. Probably something that could be implemented but I feel most FRS want to simply ‘tick the box’ when it comes to fire contaminants rather than actually caring about those who they will eventually kill.

Keep sets in the cab, and have spares at station to replace any used BA sets. 

[BurtMacklin]

Nitrile gloves, plastic bags and respirator filters are cheaper than buying and servicing a massive surplus of BA sets, that’s why they don’t do that. The H&S hierarchy says that removing a hazard is preferable, right at the top, to using PPE, which is at the bottom, but the H&S legislation also has caveats for reasonable costs. 

[Messyshaw]

Maybe a hybrid of different approaches would work?

Key stations - by size or location- have BA set washing machines and dirty sets are transported in rear lockers, only clean sets in cabs

Smaller, quiet or remote stations have spare sets . They bag up dirty sets that are replaced by van delivery?

@BurtMacklin. I am aware of the H&S caveat re reasonable costs. Thank goodness pragmatism is allowed!! But how is 'reasonable' measured.

BA is in use by all brigades every day. Some busier stations use it weekly or more frequent.  

When you see the medical evidence that's come out in recent years re contamination and cancer, it's perhaps difficult to apply the reasonable cost exemption caveat 

@Steve. Perfect. That is most definitely the pump I mentioned. It was a very odd departure from the dual use appliance which could take an escape or 135 ladder with little to no savings . I wonder why they bought them? 🤔 

[LFB92]

11 hours ago, BurtMacklin said:

Nitrile gloves, plastic bags and respirator filters are cheaper than buying and servicing a massive surplus of BA sets, that’s why they don’t do that. The H&S hierarchy says that removing a hazard is preferable, right at the top, to using PPE, which is at the bottom, but the H&S legislation also has caveats for reasonable costs. 

That’s exactly my point, it all comes down to cost, at the expense of firefighters lives. 

“Reasonable costs” cannot be used to justified not doing the best they can for firefighters health. 

They have done just enough to tick the box, and put a lot of the onus on us. If we get cancer, we didn’t decontaminate properly. Maybe after each and every job, we should start sending all BA sets off to be properly cleaned, and maybe then the point can be made. 

The money is there. I would like to know how much money has been spent on developing these new ‘values’, or the money spent on various teams and working groups.

@Messyshaw perhaps something like one decon location per borough could work, but I still believe every station should have them.

[WTTJ]

On 12/03/2024 at 15:04, Navigator said:

The best trucks I've worked on have a clean cab principle, 2 sets in the No 3/4 seats, two in a side locker. After a dirty job its a case of swapping the sets, dirty ones in the side and clean in the cab for the way back. 

Rocking up to a going person's without a set on my back is the stuff of nightmares for me personally.

All our new trucks have just this. 3 and 4 have sets in the cab, with two more in a transverse locker. Should it be a bigger job, the transverse locker has space for all four BA sets so nothing goes back in the cab. It does mean that the 5th person seat, which is designed to also hold a BA set, but never does, is really uncomfortable.

[OscarTango]

What Brigade is this, and may I see a picture? 😂