Essex Flood Incident. Not great is it?

[Messyshaw]

Every year another awkward situation is publicised where fire service procedures seem at odds with common sense, especially in relation to flood or person on ice calls. Now it's Essex FRS time

I saw this incident reported online yesterday and didnt think much about it - especially as it was reported by the Daily Fail crapmag.  But this morning I saw the video on LBC's website (link below) and it has changed my initial scepticism and in fact there are questions to be answered here.

I dont know whether the Essex crew were hanging back awaiting further resources due to their own dynamic risk assessment, or whether their own SOPs made this necessary. The news report appears to show the latter.

So who can help me make sense of what I am seeing here? I dont want to join in the social media outrage until I know more but it does look pathetic at first view. A crew holding back while untrained members of the public wade in with no lines or any kit and perform the job perhaps the FFs should have done.  

There might be sound reasoning that the media havent picked up about this incident that make their reluctance justified - and to justify soaking the member of the public as they arrived by driving like idiots - if so, please educate me.

[Kinmel]

Even in the static water of Walpole Park model boating pond

Daily Mail 12 years ago

Possibly the most stupid of them all and nothing ever changes

Official response after mineshaft incident "Casualty left to die in case they were injured during rescue !"

[Rory-495]

From what I could see from the articles. The driver was conscious and on their phone, so not in massive immediate danger/injury. The crews are probably awaiting level 2 response as there isn't an immediate risk.

I'd presume (I hope) that the crews have been briefed to go for a rescue should the casualty show signs of deterioration using the kit they have on the pump.

If the members of the public hadn't stepped in I'm sure this wouldn't even be news, or if they had been properly explained what has happening at the scene.

However I've given up caring/engaging on these stories these days as there's no point

[Messyshaw]

I cant imagine the water was particularly tepid in February so the risk of hyperthermia is surely a significant factor in any DRA

The fact the guy wasn't attempting to get out and his confused demeanour could be down to 101 reasons - including the cold

I can see why crews would not enter a fast flowing river to reach a casualty on an island, but the video didn't hardly show any rapids 😳

Your view is an interesting one and I accept it, but it still doesn't answer was the delay due to a DRA on scene or a  clumsy cover-all SOP?

[C_Iain]

Is this not exactly the reason that Ops Discretion exists?
To save human life, prevent an incident from escalating or when taking no action may lead to others putting themselves in danger.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Totally agree with ops discretion being used in this case. Get in there & do your job quite literally. 

[Crog]

How can that be ops discretion. It’s an incident that happens countless times every year. Service should have a policy/procedure for it.

We don’t know the level of training that crew has, but Mod 2 could have performed what those members of the public did. We’ve just added tethered wades to our Mod 2 training here, to add extra safety, which they could have done here. Fine to wait for Mod 3 if deem it outside your capabilities, but once the public become involved, we should be acting. 

[Rory-495]

@Messyshaw just to clarify, if I was the OIC (I'm just a FF) ops discretion would be called, get the guy out and back home for tea and medals. 

Id hazard a guess that the reason no action was taken is due to a fear of repercussions from their FRS for breaking procedure. I've met so many FF and officers, especially when it comes to water rescue, that don't want to break policy or fo anything assertive for fear of disciplinary action. I've even known an officer get disciplined and transferred as a result of similar common sense action being used in LFB.

The way I look at it is, I can happily go to the beach and swim out into the deep and do it every year on holiday. Why wouldn't I be okay slowly shuffling down a paved road that's 2/3 my depth with 4 other people watching me so that I can go open a door and walk a grown man out of a car?

I think we as the current FRS need to be let off the lead a little bit and given a bit more free reign to make decisions 

[OscarTango]

Generally there should be, and are, policies in place for this so not ops discretion.

However, the policy of waiting for Mod 2s at life risk incidents out in the sticks is frankly a bit shite.

We have had more than once such instance in our big town centre river were we've had to wait for Mod3s, and it's prompted us to introduce a "Mod2 plus" tethered wade/swim approach for Mod2s, as the river is way to deep and strong to wade with sheer side walls.

DEFRA regs do tie the hands of Mod1s in these instances. Clearly members of the public put themselves in danger in this incident so I can fully understand the moral pressure to act (I'm assuming these essex crews were Mod1). And it could probably have been done safely with a life jacket and throwline which we should all have regardless of water training. However we know it's a brave JOs that goes against policy these days...

[BurtMacklin]

Firstly we don’t know the full story here but as an incident command conversation starter:

I don’t think that ops discretion either, I’d be declaring a level 2 water incident and sending the message “non specialist crews committed to water to save life” tactical mode oscar. fill out a key decision log (after the fact notarised as such) detailing my risk assessment which would include a plan to rescue the rescuer, the increased difficulty and risk of rescuing the driver if they become unconscious, the effect on incident of the car shifting to a deeper location, estimated time of specialist response, organisational reputation and preventing members of public from placing themselves in danger with zero water training or equipment.  
 

it’s not an easy one though, particularly for inexperienced JO’s who probably don’t want to be on the end of a charged debrief from a senior officer analysing and criticising their decision. 

[Messyshaw]

OK, let me get this out up front - I accept my role here as forum dinosaur. But in fairness I never mention the war and I dont smell too bad. But this status does allows me to sit on virtual park benches and shout abuse at pigeons with impunity, so here goes........ Instead of considering:

Ops discretion and,

Making it a level 2 water incident and,

Sending a informative message and

Declaring a tactical mode and 

Scribbling into a decision log..... 

 

Why not simply grow some balls/ovaries and reach in and assist the guy out of his parked car, just like Mrs and Mrs Arkwright did as they were passing by walking their dog??????

 

In the words of Elvis Presley (not many know but he was the author of the Gold, Silver and Bronze Command structure) , "a little less conversation and a little more action please" might have been a better strategy. I agree there's a lot we dont know about this job, but the video evidence shows a car 'parked' next to a raise section of ground (albeit flooded) in a puddle as opposed to an obvious fast flowing river. 

 

The Cambridge dictionary defines the term common sense as: 'the basic level of practical knowledge and judgment that we all need to help us live in a reasonable and safe way'. It seems an increasing rare beast now and is rarely seen, in fact in the 999 game, I am wondering if it's extinct?? 🤫

[BurtMacklin]

Messy I couldn’t agree more from a common sense point of view but this is just my interpretation of the procedures, almost all of what I said is command function anyway there’d be no actual delay in the crew assisting the casualty and I’d much rather be gripping the bar having put all those things in place than not, however unlikely the worst possible outcome may be. 

[Kinmel]

Almost 13 years to the day since CFO Brian Sweeney spoke to this conundrum and there seems to have been little, or no meaningful progress since then.

H&S Law prevents rescues

Armed police officers are now facing the same problem; heroic actions taken almost instinctively are then "considered" for years and then prosecuted, no wonder personnel are reticent.

 

[TandA]

7 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

 

Why not simply grow some balls/ovaries and reach in and assist the guy out of his parked car, just like Mrs and Mrs Arkwright did as they were passing by walking their dog?????? 🤫

I don’t want to say too much here, but I have spoken with someone involved and their telling of the situation doesn’t quite tally with that description.   I don’t suppose it would be the first or last time that a journalist failed to mention a salient fact to spice up a story knowing full well that others involved would struggle to prove the omission. 

[Luminoki]

From looking at the vloggers youtube channel, he has 161 videos of cars driving into fords. So chances are he was already there waiting for some prime footage. But you don’t get views/revenue when you’re stopping drivers writing off their engines

[Keith]

Coming at this from a completely different aspect, would anyone recommend the driving instructor?