Shift Start Time

[Matt]

What time do you start in your FRS?  7, 8, 9 or different?

Does starting at say 7 or 8 in the morning make you more productive than starting at 9?

[Luminoki]

In West Mids the core start at 8am, lates at 10am and tech rescue I think at 7am ( the latter two work 12 hour shifts ) I cant speak for how tech rescue run but with the core most watches will be either be training or out doing prevention work by 10am, so lates crews often train together or will do the bulk of their training/prevention in the afternoons or early evening

[Keith]

2,2,4 starts at 08.00 and runs to 18.00. Day Crewed has had various times over the years, but now matches the 2,2,4. Can't say there has been much difference in productivity since the change of start time changed from 09.00.

[Carl]

GMFRS is 2, 2, 4 and each shift is 08:30 - 19:00 and 19:00 - 08:30 respectively on the WT stations. 

[Guest]

We do flexi rostering. We have a set amount of shifts that have to be worked across the year.

Start and finish times are 0900-1800 or 1800-0900. You can also do 24 hours but only 1 in a day period and there has to be a minimum of 24 hours before and after. 

This only applies to WT, day crewed is the usual gig with extra benefits.

As for times making you more productive no, it might affect the time you sit in traffic on the way to work but nothing else changes. Its the biggest none issue any management can put on the table when it comes to making any productive change. 

[Lumie]

LFB 09:30-20:00 days, 20:00-09:30 nights. 2,2,4 pattern.

My commute is 27 miles door to door. I leave my flat at 06:30 and I have been late to work a number of times on days. Usually arrive around 08:30-09:00. One car accident and I’m booking delayed.

Someone in LFB was pushing for 24hr shifts with a lot of support behind them, but it seems to have fizzed out to nothing. I was a massive supporter of them.

[WTTJ]

8am till 5pm days

5pm to 8am nights

Not sure if that makes us more or less productive. Night crews still have time for community work and training

[JL_Martin]

We are doing 24hrs shifts mostly. 7:00 to 7:00.

Sometimes they could be splited in 12hrs shift, 7:00 to 19:00 and 19:00 to 7:00.

7am is a good hour. no traffic jams. And it's usually a quiet time for emergencies.

[Matt]

Thanks for the replies.

[Vema11]

On 05/10/2023 at 16:27, Lumie said:

Someone in LFB was pushing for 24hr shifts with a lot of support behind them, but it seems to have fizzed out to nothing. I was a massive supporter of them.

I’m hoping they do come in. But the union are against them massively. Even though a lot of their members want to do them🧐

[Matt]

Humberside have had 24's since 2016 I think it is and think you will struggle to find anyone that doesn't want to be on them.  It's locally agreed agreement regarding them that gets reviewed from a union (I think its them) point of view don't quote me 100% on the term used but it works well.  9am start and sometimes there are some 12 hours in there to help cover shifts.

[Lumie]

On 10/10/2023 at 14:50, Vema11 said:

I’m hoping they do come in. But the union are against them massively. Even though a lot of their members want to do them🧐

Aye, I’m a union supporter but I do question their logic sometimes. Brigade might use them as a bargaining tool sometime soon, knowing how much support they had. 

[Messyshaw]

I am well retired now, but would have hated 24s. 

The push seems largely - but not exclusively - to be pushed by those who travel long distances to the station. I understand that 

But I have worked at busy stations and really cannot see how it would be safe (or healthy) to work such hours. 

I have heard many of the pro arguments, but none have explained how an employer can risk assess an assurance that a FF will be safe when s/he he has to work the entire 24 hours. Even the quiet stations will face spate conditions on occasions. And as for those who travel 3+ hours each way to work, how is that safe after a very long shift?

Maybe that is why the union are anti this proposal? 

[Lumie]

@Messyshaw If the union would rather have people sleeping on mattresses on the floor of nooks and crannies of fire stations, being woken up all hours of the night when they should be resting for their second day shift then that’s fair enough. This is the reality of most busy ships in london. Either we get a payrise that means we can afford to live on our stations grounds (£80k+) or we have 24 hour shifts that eliminates the need of staying up.

[Vema11]

 NSW FRS Australia recently moved to 24s, the article speaks for itself. With regards fatigue and wellbeing of firefighters. They are a busy met brigade with the added extra of wildfire season.  

24s can’t be any less safe than working consecutive nights. research has shown daytime sleep in-between shifts isn’t considered meaningful rest due to the unnatural aspect of sleeping through the day. Which I know a lot of people struggle with.. 

NSW Firefighters Working 24hour Shifts

Edited October 12, 2023 by Keith
Link formatted correctly

[Rory-495]

3 hours ago, Lumie said:

@Messyshaw If the union would rather have people sleeping on mattresses on the floor of nooks and crannies of fire stations, being woken up all hours of the night when they should be resting for their second day shift then that’s fair enough. This is the reality of most busy ships in london. Either we get a payrise that means we can afford to live on our stations grounds (£80k+) or we have 24 hour shifts that eliminates the need of staying up.

Maybe it could work in LFB. But in my service the same stations may get a job and then be on a relief to the same job 3 times before the end of their shift. Add that into a 24 hour cycle asmnd it's a dangerous move

[Messyshaw]

6 hours ago, Lumie said:

@Messyshaw  Either we get a payrise that means we can afford to live on our stations grounds (£80k+) or we have 24 hour shifts that eliminates the need of staying up.

But that's the reality for many workers in 2023.  My son is a college lecturer on much less than a FF so has moved  way outside of London and faces a crappy daily commute into the west end

I am not saying it's right or am I saying a pay rise isnt overdue - but its not your employers responsibility for your decision where to live.

I cannot accept that the risks associated with 24hr shifts is acceptable just so some London FFs choose to live in Wales and sleep on mates sofas between shifts 

[Guest]

I met Matt Wrack about a year back and he was aghast at the thought of 24's and couldn't accept they could potentially be safe. He worked in LFB so from the perspective of an LFB or Met firefighter I can understand why he thinks that. Its busy.

But after 18 months working in the south east I can assure you all it just isn't the same kettle of fish in the quieter brigades. 

It's more than bearable.

[Becile]

There's a strange irony thats not lost on many of us . Many firefighters have secondary employment that that is done leading into nights, between nights  etc etc whether out of choice or monetary neccesity (I did ) that often has you at a place of work for close onto that 24 hour! Did we worry then..I didn't(not saying it's  right or wrong just saying it happens)

Most brigades will struggle to monitor these secondary hours(will isdue guidance though probably. e.g well rested or phrases like that - lets not even get into the working time directive minefield.

Anyways with LFBs new afa policy the "busy " can get their downtime.😉

[Fridge03]

There is also the fact that 24s help with work life balance, scheduling of child care, travel to work etc...all of which helps with mental wellbeing. 

I get the whole "being tired" argument, and that needs to be managed on a local level on a day by day basis. A busyish 24 does take it out of you the next day but I know that I probably won't be back in for a at least 3 days after a 24, often more with flexi-rostering. 

And as already mentioned, you could have busy night shift, have to drive home, cram in some rubbish day time sleeping to then drive back to station for your next night shift.....seems worse IMO.