National Pay Offer

[Percy]

A great indicator to it being a good deal.

I am in absolutely no doubt what so ever that a ‘secret agreement’ had been made amongst all Chiefs and the Employers NJC to continue with the 1s, 1.5s, 2s until the ‘offer’ of greater enhancement through expansion of the role from the White Paper was made so by then we would have been desperate.

The battle over pay though has shocked them all let me tell you, their ‘contingency’ arrangements were in tatters across the country, especially with many RDS/On Call firefighters who didn’t strike last time having had enough of it all too.

It’s not FRSA or FOA that has won everyone this 12.35% increase with no strings, it’s the members of the FBU and their strength in unity and this strength can now only mean even more of a sizeable offer to expand the role - due to everyone’s efforts we are in a very good place in terms of negotiations and bargaining leverage, one that we haven’t really had before to this level and would have lost altogether had we not stuck to our guns.

[Aspire]

I think interestingly, I found a lot of people who voted to accept the 5% we rejected because they didn’t want to strike, then voted for strike action to ensure we had a stronger mandate to do so which would force the employers hand. Worked a treat.

[Guest]

We've still got a long way to go but this is progress and hopefully the start of a more positive discussion.

For too long CFO's and MP's have been asking us to go the extra mile before they've even gone the mile themselves... Some of them still haven't, but at least we've seen some commitment forced on them to move things forward a bit.

I suppose it might at least be possible to see an honest conversation between government and the FBU about what the future could look like now, but that's a topic for future discussion.

Let's see what comes back when this working group concludes its work.

[Messyshaw]

While I am pleased that the FBU memberships united and overwhelming strength as seen by the voting numbers obviously influenced the outcome of talks, I have been scratching my head wondering why the Govt have allowed this president to be set.

Now I read hear that uk contingency arrangements where perhaps not as strong as they should have been, it makes you wonder doesn't it?

I understood all FRS had to develop their own plans, but I know the military were being trained in Berkshire so something obviously went badly wrong

[Percy]

4 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

I understood all FRS had to develop their own plans, but I know the military were being trained in Berkshire so something obviously went badly wrong

Due to 1) The Civil Contingency Act and 2) Not enough service staff to actually do it again across the country, the sight of Green Goddesses in 77 and 02/3 turning out under police escort crewed by squaddies would never be repeated… especially as all the GGs were sold off from their two vast central storage depots between 2004 and 2008!

This recent attempt didn’t even come via a MACA request (there is still the mechanism to do so for all manner of situations) but was instead some government bluster to give a ‘show of strength’ to try and scare us off, but in reality it would have been a piecemeal token gesture up and down the country.

The Government and shameless CFOs (most of them now well gone thank the Lord) made this rod for their own backs. I have absolutely zero sympathy. 

Some of the ‘contingency’ arrangements seen around the UK have been pure farce and wouldn’t have looked out of place in a black and white Ealing comedy. On one occasion, so desperate were one FRS to find drivers, they took on ‘a rather large chap’ who was on medical oxygen… I kid ye not!! - tubes up the nose, bag on his shoulder, the full works.

This time round as I have mentioned, lots of RDS/On Call had had enough too so that historic fallback wasn’t there either for many FRSs.

If you read my many post on this subject across a couple of threads, you will have seen I had been jumping up and down trying to tell people that for the first time we had all the leverage. There were the obvious naysayers and merchants of doom who didn’t believe me and instead had heard from someone’s mate who was on an out duty from someone else (with equally no knowledge what so ever) that we would be turned over, sacked!, contracts rewritten if we came back in after a long drawn out strike etc etc.

The truth is - they had nothing. Their diabolical and arguably illegal Fire Cover contingency ‘arrangements’ were laughable. Had CFOs had any integrity during Austerity and challenged the Governments cuts vociferously and publicly instead of forming an orderly queue of sycophantic ‘yes’ men, obsessed with looking to please and not being seen to ‘rock the boat’ to ensure their QFSM and lining up post retirement well paid ‘advisor’ jobs we wouldn’t have been in this predicament.

But we were put in it and we beat them… and their grand collective plan to have us all desperately hungry for a real pay rise that would only have come after accepting many new roles and selling the family silver in terms of Ts&Cs and I continue to LMAO😂

 

[Guest]

Yeah but we called their bluff Chris and it paid off...Had we have gone out the doors the farcical contingency arrangements that you've just mentioned would have led to a failure in service for some local authorities.

The failure in service would have led to private firms being drafted into supply the fire cover via the TUPE arrangements. We know this because there's no other lawful or legal way for a CFO to rectify a failure in service should it occur. The consequences of said failure in service are incredibly undesirable, let's say.

This isn't some grand conspiracy theory or some made up issue from a table, this is UK law. It is legal now after all, the law was changed by Boris Johnson to facilitate exactly this, last July. This is just a fact, it's not a conspiracy theory. It is quite literally what would have happened if contingency arrangements werent met. You've even acknowledged that yourself?

Ask yourself why Boris bothered to change the law to facilitate it if it was never on the table?

Don't be so dismissive of facts in favour of ideology.

There's an old saying that rings true here....

"Dogs bark at what they don't understand"

[Messyshaw]

8 hours ago, Percy said:

Due to 1) The Civil Contingency Act and 2) Not enough service staff to actually do it again across the country, the sight of Green Goddesses in 77 and 02/3 turning out under police escort crewed by squaddies would never be repeated… especially as all the GGs were sold off from their two vast central storage depots between 2004 and 2008!

This recent attempt didn’t even come via a MACA request (there is still the mechanism to do so for all manner of situations) but was instead some government bluster to give a ‘show of strength’ to try and scare us off, but in reality it would have been a piecemeal token gesture up and down the country.

 

MACA request or not, Bucks Fire and Rescue were training military crews at a MoD base in High Wycombe 

It caused huge problems for the MoD operationally and they were not happy bunnies

This is not rumour but 100% kosher. I was suprised that this was happening as the CCA should have stopped this.  It was the first indicator to me that something was going very wrong 😕 

[Percy]

Hampshire were doing the very same too and I dare say many others, however, realistically at £4K per squaddie per week which the requesting FRS or other agency putting in the MACA would have to stump up, it was all just smoke and mirrors, with Tory encouraged sensationalised headlines in all the papers.

But when you break that down, there were approx 2000 military staff being trained to drive ambulances/assist Ambulance staff, perform Border Patrol duties and ‘train’ as Firefighters (on a 5 day ‘course’). For reference, in 2002/3 there were over 20,000 military staff needed to cover the national fire strikes alone. Even if all the strikes happened on different days it would still have been just a token gesture but I have a suspicion that seeing just how much of a farce contingency arrangements were for all public sectors, there just may have been (accidentally of course) strikes happening at the same time!

@PB86 the legislation you are referring to, even if it hadn’t been authorised Judicial Review which is currently doing just that as it violates Article 11 of the ECHR amongst others , is a million miles away from people being TUPED across to new ‘Private’ companies queueing up to run LA Fire and Rescue Services (which there aren’t).

The legislation only covers agency workers ‘filling in’ when there is a strike - so in effect  the same as it is now with Resilience Crews. Even the contingency schemes that have been in place for some time as per the  legal requirements under the CCA are in reality a massive dog breakfast on a national scale, LFB can’t even get it right with all their size and money and with G4S as their partner, so I very much doubt that elsewhere would have either - the real stars this time round have been RDS/On Call FBU members, they have caused lots of CFOs to panic. Yes some FRSA wouldn’t have gone out but on the grand scheme of things it would not have been a game changer.

In summary, given what we know, all the leverage was ours and still is. It is a good few months now until May 2024 when the pay ‘negotiations’ merry go round starts again officially, but regardless of the fact the Tory’s will be preparing to leave office from October, this last battle won so decisively has proven that we are not going to settle for the scraps that any Government throws at us anymore (still the only time Firefighters have gone out on Strike over pay was against two Labour Governments, not one Tory) and they would do well to remember that.

With expansion of the role now being discussed with us being in a much stronger bargaining position than previously, if not before, come July 24 this could be reflected in that offer too and will also be a highly significant deal, probably the largest we will ever get in one go as it will come with statutory duty amendments to the FRSA 2004 (if not totally rewritten).

In my near 20 years, joining on the back of the 2003 ‘deal’, we have never been in a stronger position 👍🏻

 

[TrainHardFightEasy]

How much extra do you think we will get in July 2024 Percy? 

[Percy]

If expansion of the role is part of that settlement, EMR, Wide Area Flooding, MTA you will be looking for a minimum of 10% IMHO.

I’ve been saying for years that EMR will be coming and that we should have been doing it for decades, but the enormity of it becoming a statutory role from the northernmost tip of Shetland to Lands End will be revolutionary for the UK FRS. As such, the expansion of our role to do that will result in sizeable remuneration on its own.

[Rich]

I agree EMR and MTA will be on the table for future pay rises and hopefully a substantial offer. Pre pandemic Scotland were offered 17% I believe but it included some other duties. 
 

To throw a spanner in the works with our strong position though. Most new employees in my brigade have been employed with MTA and EMR in their contracts of employment. This element of their contracts has not been utilised YET! I wonder if anyone else has this included also for new recruits?

[Percy]

Merseyside have done this which is just a further sad reflection on the top down culture there and that their peevishness has no end. Trainees sign them on day one before any contact can be made by FBU/rep body. ASOS has been called there due to this and many other examples of ‘how to alienate your entire workforce’ and another example of why we must fight one of the aims of the White Paper so hard; allowing CFOs to basically do what they want.

As it stands on Merseyside atm, it is a totally unworkable policy anyway - who is going to go out on the pumps with these new staff who have this ‘written in’ their contracts? It would take about 20-30 years for everyone to be on a new contract so all it’s done is drive another wedge between industrial relations on purpose.

[Crog]

My Kent contract had that in 5 years  ago. We were told to go with the majority of the station at that time, but it was obviously a back door way to get it in, albeit slowly.

[Percy]

It makes me laugh the way CFOs go about their business. Despite their sometimes out of control egos, they can say all they want that ‘we’ have to do EMR for free (or anything else they dream up), but the inconvenient truth is there just happens to be a Court of Appeal ruling from 2007 (Bull vs Nottinghamshire FRS; and Lincolnshire FRS) that states that EMR/Co Responding to medical emergencies isn’t part of a Firefighters contractual duties - perhaps they forget that little pearl.

As mentioned, there is huge appetite to do EMR and we should have been doing this for thirty of so years, but it’s an extra and as such there will need to be an uplift. 

[CaptainFlack]

Bump this one up....

Just had the union circular that brothers and sisters in Northern Ireland haven't had the pay rise yet. 

Can any NI bods confirm this?

[SamFire]

Yes this is true. Every excuse under the sun has been wheeled out including staff shortages in the wages department, lack of an NI Executive and delays in the completion of a business case to ask the Department of Health for extra funds. 

On top of this there are still ongoing delays for some firefighters who are long overdue the change from development to competent rate of pay. The longest wait goes back 2.5-3 years I believe. 

[Navigator]

Surely that's very illegal to withhold the best part of 30k in wages? 

[Messyshaw]

@Navigator...as opposed to slightly illegal?😉

[Kinmel]

The "Agency" cover has been killed off....  

Strike Breaking Agency Worker Regulations Unlawful