Foam Appliances

[Luminoki]

Daft question but even with a service the size of LFB is there a need for 4 bulk foam units?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Keith
Topic split

[Rory-495]

No. For the love of God there is no need for 4, on the run, blue light capable bulk foam units. The one at Harrow was used for foam once in about 20 years and only ever gets used for the forklift to remove the major lights off their truck. 

It causes so many issues with standbys and results in appliances being off the run to keep this irritating appliance om the run

[Messyshaw]

Many years ago there was a brigade away from London that introduced a innovative solution to moving bulk foam supplies to incidents (I cannot recall where)

They recognised the costs of supplying the foam tenders, maintaining them including flushing against the amount of times they were likely to be used. They also looked at the time from a request to getting foam on could be relatively long without a huge problem.

So they built a number of elevated liquid carrying tanks - insulated and when required, heated storage vessels on legs - at fire stations near to motorways and good transport links. These would hold foam concentrate and have pipework and a pump to fill it

When bulk foam was required, pumps (water tenders) would dump their water, back under the elevated tanks and fill the appliance tank with concentrate via a gravity feed

The LPP and other kit would be dropped off and left at the station to make room for foam branches and ancillary foam kit, before the appliance could attend. The fill may only take 10 mins or less

The elevated tanks were cheap as was their maintenance. The water tenders needed no work other than on their overflows to stop foam concentrate spilling en route (not nice if you are following on four wheels, but lethal on two wheels) and some stowage straps to safely accommodate the foam kit in lockers

If the home appliances were not available, appliances from nearby stations would respond and deliver the foam

Questions

• Can anyone recall what brigade that was?
• Why the hell didnt it catch on?

[Percy]

Your neighbours in Surrey did just that with at least one of their five former Mercedes’ Water Carriers, definitely had a gravity fed/elevated tank at Leatherhead (J9 M25 and where the Grenfell ALP came from) for this every purpose. Not sure why it didn’t catch on on mass, I think it was removed in the late 00’s - Surrey were quite innovative historically, to be fair they still are in many respects vehicle, equipment and PPE wise as @Becile will attest for as he helped to bring a fair few things in.

The old K reg Mercs were great to see and hear, and best yet, they had a flashing tri-foil blue light within the central Merc badge which I’ve never seen before but eventually time caught up with them and their 9000ltr capacity in favour of the ultra high tec, rear steer 17,000ltr wheeled super tankers that replaced them. They defo don’t have a foam capability though and this role is now via IBC containers being dropped off.

[Aspire]

12 hours ago, Luminoki said:

Daft question but even with a service the size of LFB is there a need for 4 bulk foam units?

Playing semantics here, but pretty sure the 4th flatbed has always been for the Operational Support Centre in Purley to bring on things we may need. This leaves Beckenham as the Bulk Media Centre without a BFU, with the other 3 at Barking, Harrow and Kingston.

[Kinmel]

8 hours ago, Percy said:

• Can anyone recall what brigade that was?
• Why the hell didnt it catch on?

Cheshire, in the early 1980's  had 1000litre foam storage tanks at Frodsham and another in the Warrington area.  Frodsham is local to the Ellesmere Port refineries and the Runcorn ICI chemical plants, Warrington has huge ICI plants too.

It had a few problems -

1.  rarely used because there was an 8 wheel foam tanker at Ellesmere Port, plus Shell, Castrol, Burmah and other works brigades had numerous bulk foam tenders and had mutual aid that was regularly used. 

2. The carrying appliance could not produce finished foam - it used the main pump to transfer the compound into the foam tanker and it could rarely get close to the tanker.

3. Corrosion - pumping foam compound caused long term corrosion to the main pumps, especially the seals.

Now Cheshire has traditional bulk foam tankers at Ellesmere Port and Warrington, with at least 1 new one going on the run recently at the Port.

-------------------

A number of brigades looked at copying the idea, including us over the border in Clwyd, we had an airport type foam tender and a foam carrier with 25 litre drums.

In the late 1980s the foam tender required replacement and as S.S.O., my ops support team and Fleet looked at many alternatives including the Cheshire option. In the end we adapted the Cheshire model. 

Angus move bulk foam all over the world in 1000L palletised containers which are non-returnable. We fitted 3 stations across the brigade with platforms in their appliance bays. Angus delivered one container of Alcoseal directly up onto each platform and 3 more directly onto the flat bed foam carrier using their lorry's HIAB. If a container was empty, Angus simply swapped it out within 12 hours.

Our fleet manager was a Captain in the Territorial Army Engineers, he turned up with a 1000L bladder that the military use to forward supply fuel to tanks etc.  They are dropped from helicopters, so are relatively fire fighter proof.  We removed the ladders from a pump and lashed the bladder on top of the vehicle.   Angus filled it with foam and under the guidence of Driving School and old hand drivers, it proved to be roadworthy.   A bladder could be filled in about 10 minutes using an electric rotary pump.

All the pumps carried four 25L. cans of AFFF with built in proportionators feeding the hosereels, which had clip on aerator nozzles or using the 5 FMB in the traditional way.

We moved completely away from protien foam because our risk survey at the start of the project identified that significant quantities of alcohol based materials travelled across the county en-route to Ireland.

I retired with ill-health in 1990 and I have no idea what North Wales does now.

 

[Becile]

It didn't catch on because its easier just to have a call in contract with Angus or other suppliers, you just need a delivery method, which is easily acheived and way cheaper, and you won't end up sending it all back at end of life (or luckily using it at buncefield )

When we filled the water carrier to make a foam carrier, inevitably it didnt get used, or not much at incident, and you had to flush it and get it back to elevated tank (xmas on the drill yard for days!!)

[Keith]

Split this topic off from the pictures of the new LFB appliances as there were more posts about foam appliances, which does merit discussing in its own right.

We're actually discussing this at the minute with a refresh of bulk foam capabilities in the offing. Biggest problem with foam in general is we don't use it very often unless you happen to get a Buncefield, which nobody wants.

[Matt]

There are actually 5 of the new vehicles, 4 of which were seen in the line up at the barracks this week.  They are just flat bed lorries as I saw them in build earlier in the year.

Might not be a need for loads of foam but then many would say there isn't the need for fire stations these days, its an insurance policy.  I don't know the ins and outs but LFB have been reviewing their foam use as they have been up north training with different foams in recent months.

Up in Humberside along with Yorkshire rather than each bulk storing foam they all all keep a 1/4 each now, less cost but when required they can all pool together and there fore there isn't a big cost once its out of date, the IBC route on sled's/lorries seems to be the way now as that is what has happened up here and elsewhere.  

[Tiggs]

On a similar note, Shropshire have now put on the run three Pumps which carry 1000L of foam and 2200L of Water which is a very impressive load. Maybe this could be a way forward? 

[Dyson]

On 06/09/2022 at 09:44, Matt said:

There are actually 5 of the new vehicles, 4 of which were seen in the line up at the barracks this week.  They are just flat bed lorries as I saw them in build earlier in the year.

Might not be a need for loads of foam but then many would say there isn't the need for fire stations these days, its an insurance policy.  I don't know the ins and outs but LFB have been reviewing their foam use as they have been up north training with different foams in recent months.

Up in Humberside along with Yorkshire rather than each bulk storing foam they all all keep a 1/4 each now, less cost but when required they can all pool together and there fore there isn't a big cost once its out of date, the IBC route on sled's/lorries seems to be the way now as that is what has happened up here and elsewhere.  

There isn’t a need for fire stations ?. 😵‍💫