Fire Contaminants

[Robbie Burns]

Hi

Im working in Hampshire and IOW Frs and in a contaminants role. We are looking into health issues arising out of the job, mainly cancers. 

Is any other brigade looking closely at this please?. 

[Rory-495]

Hi mate,

Currently LFB are going in on this hard. Thus is currently a big part of our 2 day BA refresher. A new policy has been agreed between LFB and the FBU which will be released soon. A lot of new procedures have been released such as new doffing of BA procedure and a proposed zonal protection system on the fireground/station (similar to a HAZMAT)

It's a huge can of worms and I feel it'll potentially take a whole generation of firefighters for the culture of clean firefighting to become the norm

[Messyshaw]

@Rory-495I hope it doesn't take a generation for serving firefighters to get there heads around this rather simple concept 

When I joined in the late 1970s the LFB had plenty of compressed air BA and some oxygen Proto sets. ( 6 x CA and 2 x Proto on a 2 pump station). Before then it was all Proto which had a reputation to be a pig to service after use,  so firemen avoided using it unless they really had to

We all thought that the advent of CA and quicker servicing would see the end of smoke eaters and those retiring would inevitably live longer.

But 45+ years on although smoke eating died off (pun intended) very rapidly, retired FFs are still dying early at an alarming rate.

I am on  a FB group of grumbly old retired gits and the attrition rate - especially via cancer - remains disproportionately high compared with other groups of workers.

I hope the UK FRS adopt some of the Nordic fire services ideas such as clean cabs, one use PPE then bag it in soluable bags in the street and straight into fire station washing machines

I have also seen dishwasher type BA set cleaners which has to be better and more consistent than a wipedown with a paper towel

So you lot, get behind anyone or any FRS who is pushing for this, as you deserve to see your grandchildren grown up. Not all of my mates have or will get that opportunity 😕 

[Robbie Burns]

Thanks gents. 

Im a cancer patient myself and its likely to be from firefighting... 

Any information on guidance would be much appreciated if you have some?. 

Thanks in advance

Robbie 

[Dyson]

Hi Robbie ! Firstly I want to send to you, all of the love and strength and solidarity I have. 

Regarding your question, I only know of the FBU who are doing a large study on this, one study in particular focusing on those who fought the fire at Grenfell tower. I guess that info might be relevant to what you’re hoping to find. 

Good luck mate, please keep us in the loop. Peace and love 🧘❤️

[Rory-495]

Best of luck my friend and hope you have a speedy recovery

Another avenue to look down us the FBU joint study with UCLAN which may give uou some more info

[Noddy]

FBU UCLAN report

[Becile]

If you haven't already  catch up with James Grove (DIM and  Hazmat west mids frs) he's considered one of the leads on this, and has loads of info and resource that can be used . Theres a really helpful report  ,We used loads of it for our clean person/ contaminants work when I was runnning it.

(Clean cab, decon procedure, ba machines, personal issue masks, kit bags etc) we did it before the fbu report, but delighted that many of their recommendations were already in place when it was published.

Take care Mate. Lots to do in this arena...lots of it is behavioural.

[LFB92]

I don’t agree with it taking a generation in London. Already seen on a few jobs now crews only being allowed one wear and to immediately change out of PPE. Also cleaning boots, lids etc on the fire ground rather than taking it all back to station to do it.

[Robbie Burns]

Amazing. Thanks. Onwards 

3 hours ago, Becile said:

If you haven't already  catch up with James Grove (DIM and  Hazmat west mids frs) he's considered one of the leads on this, and has loads of info and resource that can be used . Theres a really helpful report  ,We used loads of it for our clean person/ contaminants work when I was runnning it.

(Clean cab, decon procedure, ba machines, personal issue masks, kit bags etc) we did it before the fbu report, but delighted that many of their recommendations were already in place when it was published.

Take care Mate. Lots to do in this arena...lots of it is behavioural.

Thank you muchly mate. I will be in touch as you mentioned. Its a huge topic and it's growing!. 

I will update the thread as things progress. 

Cheers 

Robbie 

[Br9mp81]

A FFTR i know had a medical the other day, part of which is bloods,the Dr asked if some could be send as part of a study in to the effects of mirco plastics in AFFF.

[Steve]

On 24/05/2022 at 09:07, LFB92 said:

I don’t agree with it taking a generation in London. Already seen on a few jobs now crews only being allowed one wear and to immediately change out of PPE. Also cleaning boots, lids etc on the fire ground rather than taking it all back to station to do it.

I applaud this as I live my life wondering if I'm going to get ill from what I did. Attacking car fires without BA, jumping into burning rubbish bins to hold down the rubbish, while they filled the bin up with an open ender.... pretty much all firefighting that wasn't within a closed compartment (i.e a building in use) was done without BA. Even some smaller compartment fires such as chip pans or smouldering items were done without BA... WTF??

The trouble is, in the last few months since LFB took on this procedure, there appears to be a jump in large attendances at modest jobs. A 10 pump fire a couple of weekend ago where a garden fire jumped into the roof's of a pair of terraced houses. When asked why,  (I texted a few who were there) the answer looked to be an additional attendance to deal with the cutting away and damping down as the initial crews were now stood there in workwear taking no further part. Easy to do in Met Brigades, how is this likely to work in small Counties who tend to make up much more reluctantly in any case?

[Rory-495]

With the LFB procedures I might stress that these are NOT yet in policy. It is being taught on the newest 2 day BA course as an awareness package and what is likely to come in. We have been given strict instruction to emphasise this is not yet in policy.

Also, we have heard about firefighters taking PPE off and not taking any further action on the job. This is against what they are being taught. They're taught to minimise exposure (half masks, nitrile gloves, changing PPE at stayion etc.) Re wearing your Firefighting PPE is no issue if you wear a half mask, wash hands and wear gloves and officers should be clearer on this once the policy comes in.

On top of this, the generational issue I mention isn't just attitudes. The infrastructure of LFB stations isn't set up for dealing with contaminants. Middlesex stations for example are all different. Southall have their BA serving room in the middle of the living side of the station so will potentially have to carry filthy sets through the kit area or gym or watch room to clean it. Each station will have its own issues and will cost a lot of money to correct

[Jono]

Like everyone has mentioned prior this is going to be the biggest thing for all brigades going forward into the future… or at least I hope so, clean can policy, lockers to store dirty kit on trucks possibly…. I was in a meeting a few weeks ago with our local Fire authority, I mentioned how services in other parts of Europe have installed saunas, now I know this was laughed at for obvious reasons 😂 and the last thing they will want to instal is saunas in stations over here, but looking into how it cleans the skin etc it’s something I now try to do elsewhere should I feel I need it, I also a few years ago tested positive for skin cancer, thankfully I caught it early but I won’t lie the though always lingers in the back of my mind, it needs to be made a thing to look after each other and ourselves.

[Healdav]

4 hours ago, Jono86 said:

I was in a meeting a few weeks ago with our local Fire authority, I mentioned how services in other parts of Europe have installed saunas, now I know this was laughed at for obvious reasons 😂 and the last thing they will want to instal is saunas in stations over here, but looking into how it cleans the skin etc it’s something I now try to do elsewhere should I feel I need it, I

I'm not arguing with you, but where do they have saunas?

Until a few years ago in France if you were promoted you had to use the helmet and other kit that your predecessor had left behind!

And there is no sauna at the brand new station down the road from my home.

[Harve88]

I like the look of those dishwashers for BA sets, can see these being on all stations before long 

[Nick417]

SFRS are now trying to implement a lot of good stuff, we have carried out some station studies to try to have red amber green zones for dirty/clean kit

and we have started to trial new  BA doffing procedures, essentially leaving the BA mask on till last, using decontam wipes and nitrile gloves.

Looking at other Fire services in Europe we are probably about 5-10 years behind on what we do with contaminated kit. Wiping down a BA set with a paper towel just doesn't cut it in todays world.🤨

[Rory-495]

We are behind, but educating newer firefighters early on, as we are doing on our recruits course, should help change the culture going forward. 

What I worry about is officers who refuse to adopt this, either through ignorance or arrogance. One of our delegates reported to us that their SubO is actively discouraging the contaminants protection on station.

[Messyshaw]

On 29/05/2022 at 19:48, Harve88 said:

I like the look of those dishwashers for BA sets, can see these being on all stations before long 

I would have thought that most fire stations could fit one of these machines in 

@Rory-495At Southall, move the Station Commanders office to the BA room and use his existing room directly off the yard for BA cleaning 👍

Harstra BA Cleaning Machine

[Rory-495]

The issue with those machines is cost. A compromise would be put one in each area and OSUs collect them after a job to be cleaned

Southall that would definitely work. But practically every station needs adjusting

[Luminoki]

I know of one very brave gaffer who after having a going job at 2am, requested a flexi to come to the incident ground to collect the BA wearers, take them back to station and return them with clean kit once they’d showered

The washing machine would be a great idea but like previously said where would you put it ( ideally it should be in the BA servicing room but some of the stations barely have enough room to fit two people to clean their sets ) Somewhere like our BA training i should think would be first, due to the number of delegates and recruits passing through a second servicing room has been built in the yard

[Messyshaw]

1 hour ago, Rory-495 said:

The issue with those machines is cost. A compromise would be put one in each area and OSUs collect them after a job to be cleaned

No No and thrice NO. That is most definitely not the attitude

The fire service spend £millions every year on training and equipment aimed on keeping you safe and healthy at work.

Recent(ish) scientific research has highlighted this contamination issue, so your employer (and union) MUST act. BA washing machines is one control measure that is an efficient way of keeping you healthy now and long into retirement. BA set harnesses are pigs to clean. Wipes and warm water can never do the job the hot water in a BA cleaning machine can do.

I just know if I was still operational I would be an absolute pain for management, bloody well insisting this innovation was installed everywhere ASAP

The LFB have petting dogs. Other FRS  allow non op staff to work from home to help their mental health. All very worthy I am sure, but so is cleaning the shite and detritus off sets for the next wearer so they can enjoy their pension and grandchildren like other workers in the community do. That isn't too much to ask is it?

As @Steve has said above, I live with the constant anxiety of what is likely to happen to my health after 32 years of breathing, touching and ingesting all sorts of mucky stuff from filthy kit, PPE, appliances and stations. I am on a FB Group of old retired farts. We lose members almost weekly and have a queue of regulars with cancer waiting their turn.🥲

You lot must make a stand and do it now

(Reaching for a cuppa as I climb off my soapbox 🙄)

 

[Robbie Burns]

Fantastic comments and please stay on that soap box mate. It is a very real thing and it is coming for us all. Thanks again..

Quote removed as its a direct quote of the previous post. Please see FAQ.

[Rory-495]

Messy, keep on the soapbox. We all need to be shouting and screaming this from the top of our lungs. 

I do worry however when we have observing station Commanders come on the course who have zero understanding of this. It seems only operational station officers and below are being given this information

[Br9mp81]

It’s little battles, we no longer have fire kit stored 24/7 in the bays due to vehicle fumes even with exhaust systems, yet i 'd been in the job 15 years before the first ones were fitted