Who Goes First on a 2 Pump Shout?

[Noddy]

Thought I'd start what proved to be a "lively chat" around a mess table I once had.

Before I was an FI, I worked on a 2 pump WT station.  I was both a LFm/CM and then the SubO/WM on the same watch.  As the CM, my then WM insisted that I wait for the ladder (his appliance) to roll out the door before I did on the pump, even if we were ready to roll before them.  

I argued that surely getting an appliance there ASAP was our priority, and if we were out on station 'available radio', I could get there first anyway!  He argued that all riders had a specific job to do and things ran better when he and his crew arrived before the pump, so when turning out together from station he was to go first.   When I got promoted I binned that rule.

Just wondered if anybody else had similar stories and what folks thought about it? Should the IC go first, or not?

(For info, in West Mids, the senior rank rides the ladder/first appliance and the junior hand rides the pump/second appliance.  The pump goes to all the single appliance shouts, with the ladder only going to the bigger/more significant jobs)

[Jet]

I served at three two-pump stations in LFB and all had the same rule, guvnor on the PL goes first. It's not the same up in GMFRS from where I've been so far, and didn't sit right with me at first! 

I do wonder what the rationale behind it is as it was never explained to me and I didn't question it. If I had to hazard a stab in the dark I would say maybe it was to do with the fact that the Stn/O used to ride the pump whilst the LFm/Sub used to ride the PL/PE. Maybe this was to ensure the pump didn't park up the arse of the PL/PE making it difficult to access the ladder (especially in the case of a PE). Of course this is literally just my own speculation (unless I'm right in which case it's good historical knowledge 😂). 

[Andy1]

At my station I don’t think there is a hard and fast rule on the above or if there is I’ve not actually heard it spoken about but 9 times out of 10 our first does turn out first on 2 pump turnouts and I have known our second hold back slightly at times. I’ve possibly known our second go first if there is a detached officer in from the other side of service I’d say maybe down to topography more than anything. I guess it will change from watch to watch too. 
@Jetin LFB do the PLs carry the 135s and the pumps have 9m/10.5s on?

[Messyshaw]

In the LFB days when we had Pump Escape and Pumps, with narrow roads, 4 and 5 storey  town houses converted to HMOs - it was always desirable for the PE to arrive and pull past the address to allow the escape ladder to be slipped and then be in front of the building. The Pump would stop short of the address to give some space.

To slip a wide, wheeled escape ladder  and then try and get it past and appliance and parked cars was often impossible. 

In addition, some modern buildings would have very poor access which required the PE to go first. Grenfell Tower was an excellent example as the access road to that (before the modernisation) was really tight so the escape had to go first if possible.

There was no strict order in the outer London suburbs and it was just either down to the Officer in Charge's preference, or as the travel distances to the shout were longer in the sticks, it would be the driver who knew the way to the address who would lead.

The whole thing became less disciplined with the demise of the escape ladder and introduction of the 135, as this ladder could squeeze down a gap between an appliance and parked cars or usually on the pavement - previous no-go areas for escapes

       

 

[Jet]

Well I was almost right then 😆

[BurtMacklin]

It’s in the ops professionalism policy for London that PL’s ‘should’ go first at multi appliance stations ‘where possible’. 

[WTTJ]

We've no formal policy to my knowledge, but most of our multi pumps have Rescue Pump appliances which the WM rides. They may not fit down many roads, so the pump will often go first. As a BA team you're not going in till the reel is off and the board is set up so for me it makes sense that the pump is there first to start setting up the fire ground. 

On my station the pump is closer and usually has a younger crew so is ready to go sooner, so we just go.

[OscarTango]

So as a side note, what to PLs and ladders even mean these days?

At ours the "ladder" goes first to two pump shouts, otherwise the Water Tender does the grunt work.

Only this is now an anachronism: the "ladder" has an HGV platform on the middle gantry now instead of a ladder, and the 13.5 is on the water tender... .

[HB2016]

It varies here with no hard and fast rule but for the most part P7 will lead if both P6 & P7 are mobilised, mainly as WM's will ride the 'major appliance' rather than the first away. I've had a long served WM explain it to me like this: "I've done 30 years of this £$%^, So I want to be on the quieter pump - but if it's a goer, then I've done 30 years and I want to be in charge!" It was said in a jokey manner but I could tell he meant it! 😂

@OscarTangoI think the firefighters on the whole don't cope with change too well, especially when it comes to what they learned years ago! We still call our trucks the 'ladder' and 'water tender' although we have neither in the old P1/P4 style. They are theoretically, Rescue Pump P7 and Light Rescue Pump P6. Although some old P1's/P4's are still hanging around at the odd RDS station.

[Luminoki]

Dependant on station and watch. The BRV can and does go first, mainly because its nippier in traffic and has the speed a truck doesnt always Also a brv can go through weight/height restrictions so they can and do beat us to a job occasionally. Regarding our lates brvs, most of the time they are crewed with a WC as its a different shift system so doesnt really matter whose on scene first from a ranking officer perspective. 

[Dyson]

I don’t have these rules, and don’t like them. If one of the drivers has a bomb proof route, they lead, if one crew rigs quicker, they go…. We do have standing watch and station rules about roles at fires.  PL is rescue and P is water. 
 

4 hours ago, OscarTango said:

So as a side note, what to PLs and ladders even mean these days?

At ours the "ladder" goes first to two pump shouts, otherwise the Water Tender does the grunt work.

Only this is now an anachronism: the "ladder" has an HGV platform on the middle gantry now instead of a ladder, and the 13.5 is on the water tender... .

it means a lot where I am. The whole PDA and mobilisation policy is built around it. Largely I think because of who rides in charge. For example a simple building fire will attract a PDA of 2 PA’s, one of which will be a PL, it may be 2 PLs but never 2 Ps

Every PDA and incident category will require a number of appliances required, and the minimum number of PLs is always the baseline requirement. 

A P is used for simple one appliance calls with no perceived life risk (PSIL being an example of exception) , or to make up attendances. 
 

PS we call the PL “ the ladder” and a TL “the ladders”. The pump is know as just that or “ the camel” out east sometimes. 

[Percy]

Sounds to me like there’s ego’itis if a pump is ready to go but ‘then old man’ insists you wait for him. 

How about get the trucks to the job as quickly as possible? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Couldn’t have worked for him. 

[LFB92]

So at my station there’s no rule about it other than ladder rigs and pump sorts water. Had a job recently where the ladder took a wrong turn, quick message on the handheld radios between officers on the appliances and the pump rigged in BA instead. No arguments, no fuss. We are there to do a job. Saying one appliance has to wait for the other is all ego.

[Steve]

I'm with Messy, it was an old Escape based tradition (slightly before my time, that lasted well after they were gone). As a matter of fact, older hands were still referring to the PL as the 'escape' well into the 90's.

"Anyone wanna get away"?

"Yer, please Bill, I'm driving the escape, it's been derved up so good to go"

Although a great traditionalist, as a Stn O, I wasn't that fussed, if we pulled out together, the Pump would let the PL go first, but if the Pump was ready and the duty man was still climbing into the back of the PL for example, the Pump would be off and not sit there. So no hard and fast rules as it really didn't matter. The only thing that would be adhered to is that if the pump arrived first, then it was courtesy to await the more senior officer on the PL to make a job up. Unless they had mobilised from elsewhere, such as they were out and much nearer, then it was affectively a split attendance so the job was the deputies until I arrived. 

It was also bad from to do that on someone else's ground, where one station might just edge another (it was great sport to beat others onto their own ground, probably still is), but courtesy stated that you'd let them take the job. Even if a Stn O arrived on another station ground with a Sub O in charge, the confirmation of who would take it would be verbally stated whereas if it was your own ground it would be assumed without question or conversation. 

Arriving on their ground; "Alright Bill, I think we'll need to make this up, I'll take it, can you get your driver to make 'em four from me"

Them on our ground "Alright Bill, I'm going to make this up, get your crew in BA and your driver to help mine set in".

[Messyshaw]

@SteveDelay making up if you arrive before the home station? I have never heard of that😳. Not sending a stop maybe, but delay requesting assistance? Thats ridiculous 

Booking in at a shout before the home station (when we did it via the radio) was frowned upon. I did it at the BBC TV complex once as we arrived. The station officer at Hammersmith (his ground) had delayed booking in until his "wheels had stopped turning" as opposed to arriving at the address

He was a regular here once and is highly respected- but that didn't stop him launching an angry and excessive bollocking my way. Frankly I didn't see what the fuss was about 🤔

[Carl]

In GMFRS we have never been precious about who turns out first, or who gets there first, and if a CM is there first and makes the decision to make up before the WM does, so be it. Happens all the time, as soon as the WM arrives, he will get the brief and either change or make up if more are required. Id like to think we train our commanders enough to give them that responsibility. 

Twenty years ago, it may have been a different story, but with less than 10 two pump stations now, I don't see it as an issue. 

I am also glad we don't have the P and PL issue, all the GMFRS pumps carry a 13.5m ladder. Apart from an LPP and differing cutting equipment, all pumps are identical (ish)

[Steve]

8 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

@SteveDelay making up if you arrive before the home station? I have never heard of that😳. Not sending a stop maybe, but delay requesting assistance? Thats ridiculous 

Booking in at a shout before the home station (when we did it via the radio) was frowned upon. I did it at the BBC TV complex once as we arrived. The station officer at Hammersmith (his ground) had delayed booking in until his "wheels had stopped turning" as opposed to arriving at the address

He was a regular here once and is highly respected- but that didn't stop him launching an angry and excessive bollocking my way. Frankly I didn't see what the fuss was about 🤔

Must have been an F Division/NE thing then, but it was an unspoken protocol that made sense to me. I think I made it clear that was not any type of split attendance.... so your Sub OfficerL/Ff arriving 20/30/40 seconds or so before you and jumping on the radio to make up a job you'd be in charge of. What if I didn't see it as a make up? I have then inherited something I didn't want or need. Obviously, as I said if they are round the corner and pull up while the Stn O is still only halfway there, that is a slightly different prospect (although no one should make up without a proper assessment anyway IMHO and a full consideration of all of everything). I only made one job up from the cab, that was a maisonette going end to end, with a 'football crowd' of onlookers and high pitched screaming, so it was evident persons were involved ( a child in fact.... we got her thankfully, fundamentally uninjured). 

Early in my career, I had the benefit of some conversations with a particularly sagacious old Guv'nor (God rest his Soul) when I was still very young.... he loved to tell a story and I was a willing audience because I was a sponge for when I was a gonna be a Guv'nor myself.  I kept hold of a lot of what he told me, I am a sucker for a tale, but love the learning that came with them.... one of his things was to never shout, scream or run... it didn't look good and didn't inspire confidence, even if you were panicking, it would only get worse, it was your job, you set the tempo, I think my record would state (ask others) that was always the case.

The other was about make up's. Something like this... "Even if it's glowing in the night sky, before you pick up the handset, think about what you need, where you want to put them and what they'll do. (I think they actually teach that now 🤣). Otherwise, before you know it you'll have half a dozen people around you asking what, where, when, why and how... and you'll still have no idea and will look stupid". 

I can still hear him, I consistently applied it from my first ever make up, a person's reported as a Lff, right up to the last job I made up in my name in 2018. So, having thought about this old F Division policy and the waiting for the IC to arrive at his or her own job, I still stick by it. Anyone who makes it up before they've had a chance to consider it fully should have thought about it and by then the IC would be there. 😉

PS, I know who you mean, I argued with him on here, but he was a one off and I had endless respect for him. I believe he is still going, although not so publicly active these days. 

[Messyshaw]

I agree @Steve, making up on the hoof and without a 'good look' is a precarious activity. 👍

I went on a shout to a nightclub on our neighbouring stations ground. We received multiple calls. The fantastic-but-faded frontage of this Art Deco building had a 300mm x 300mm  spinning illuminated sign which went up perhaps 3 floors. It resembled a rotating doner kebab with the name of the club printed on all four sides. A short circuit had ignited the hollow sign and the perspex face of the sign was alight almost top to bottom. The 2 pump PDA was well sufficient to deal as the club was yet to open.

The OIC of the neighbouring 1 pump station was a bit of a flapper and most definitely didnt comply with Steve's never shout, run or scream strategy! As I was wondering what he would make of this job, he was arriving at the address from the side, so only saw the profile of the building - not the face. This meant he saw flames coming from 1st to 3rd floor and panicked. He made up and seconds later, his pump pulled up at the front where he got a full few of this diminutive fire.

We heard "Make pumps four, persons reported" followed immediately by "Cancel make pumps four" all in the same message 🤣

I was shocked, but I was also feeling a bit mischievous so sent a message to control just to rub it in "Can you please confirm whether this is a 4PF or not?".  The poor ConOff wasn't sure 

Lots of people say it doesn't matter if you make up and there was no need.  A sort of 'use them or lose them' attitude. I can see that up to a point. But we have lost members of the public & firefighters - one a friend of mine - in fatal RTCs en route to effectively a false alarm.  So I always believed there was a responsibility to those on the foreground and those attending when making up, so like Steve was happy to  have a good look first on 98% of occasions.

I also admit, I sometimes kept the job to the initial attendance when it was probably a make up, so we could have fun without a coach load of white helmets overrunning the job and saying 'no'. OK, not necessarily acceptable now, but it was good for building skills and watch morale  

 

[HB2016]

So, do your services generally have the highest rank take over on arrival? e.g. CM turns up first, WM on the next pump and they take over? For us here CM & WM do the same command assessment and can be in charge of the same amount of pumps and as such it doesn't matter who is in charge - a WM won't take over from a CM (unless the CM asks them to). Also, if a level 1 is in charge (FF acting up) they don't automatically lose their role as IC either.

[Dyson]

@HB2016 mate, there is so much wrong with that,  I don’t know where to start. But I can’t control what some county brigades get up to….. reminds me why I came back to LFB tbh  

The bottom line is, the most senior member of staff in attendance at any incident is responsible, organisationally, and legally. Fact  End of. 

[Noddy]

Completely agree with Dyson.  Very surprised to hear of that practice!!!

[Messyshaw]

@HB2016. That does seem to be quite an interesting approach. Are you sure you have described that 100% accurately?

On the one hand, the Fennell Report that investigated the Kings Cross fire in 1987 was critical of the LFB that so much time was lost with multiple handing overs from a rank to a higher rank as the job escalated. A DACO was in charge for 17 mins (Or some daft amount of time), which Fennell argued was ridiculous. HB2016's account of a system where lower ranks maintain responsibility would solve that.

Surely this command concept is likely to be a legal minefield. Much of the legal framework that surrounds H&S and corporate responsibility relies on competence - the right people doing the right thing at the right time. 

However, Hampshire F&RS are a well respected firm and have lots of experience in legal matters (Digital Computers 1990), so I am sure they have looked into it. But after seeing hours of the Grenfell Inquiry, I dread to think what a public inquiry would make of a junior and arguably less competent manager being allowed to make decisions at an incident where a more competent manager was on site. 

[Carl]

Highest rank / role takes over here. WM can run a 3 pump, if it goes to 4, I get tipped out, if I make it 8 then a GM tips out, if GM makes it 12, then and AM takes over. 

Our new CFO is notified of any incident 6 and over and is known to make an attendance to see what's going on. 

Similar to @Dyson, there is a lot to talk about on this and perhaps needs it own topic.

[Kinmel]

The 1947 Fire Services Act was explicit about who was in charge at a fire. S30  (3)At any fire the senior fire brigade officer present shall have the sole charge and control of all operations for the extinction of the fire.

When and why was that removed from the legislation ?

[TandA]

We can get SMs come on in an operational support / monitoring role to jobs with a WM in charge.  The SM, as the most senior officer present, will have legal and organisational responsibility for the incident, but they won’t necessarily take over unless they decide the incident is clearly going to escalate or the situation demands a competence the WM won’t have.  Of course, if the job meets our criteria for an automatic L2 IC (eg >4 pumps) then a SM will be sent on to assume the IC role.