Rigging on Route

[OscarTango]

It seems this is a taboo in some brigades. What are different services attitudes towards this practice?

Some of the new appliances coming around have the BA in the body and not in the cab. This is great from a contaminants point of view, but it seems like this design feature has crept in without any consultation, implying they dont want us getting off the lorry with sets actually on our back.

Is this the future? rightly or wrongly, if it is, it makes me uncomfortable.

[Jet]

For me rigging en-route comfortably complies with the firefighter safety maxim.

As for contaminants, we have just bought in appliances that have two attack sets in cab, two in side lockers. After a snotty job, the locker sets are moved into the cab whilst the dirty ones are dealt with properly back at station. We also need to invest in BA set cleaners that have been widely available from manufacturers for years. 

No excuse in my eye for not have a rig en-route system in place for the benefits it brings. It's even possible to rig wearing a seatbelt. 

[Becile]

We've not rigged en route for a good many years now, Jet I'd like to see how this can be acheived without taking your seatbelt off for the seatbelt to be effective in an RTC, the ba cradles are not rated for crash protection to my knowledge. We also have a zero tolerance on seatbelts.

Having witnessed ff's go out of the job from an aplliance RTC where rigging was involved en route I may have a different opinion to some of you.

The benefit doesn't outway the risk imho

[Messyshaw]

At my last station, we sat down to discuss this issue in depth as the watch were pretty much 50/50 split 

Half were coming at it from @Jet's point of view, the others were definitely in the @Becile camp. We came up with a voluntary hybrid type compromise.

Option A: Calls to AFA, fire, car alight, hazmat and the like - nominated wearers rig immediately upon arrival even if no fire situation is showing. (Mandatory)

Option B: Persons reported (in occupied premises), multiple calls where your appliance may arrive first, or in exceptional circumstances - rig BA en route (Voluntary)

We thought that approach got the risk/benefit reward about right 

[OscarTango]

I'm glad that a rational conversation was had Messy, that's what seems to be lacking. Its pretty much as you describe at our place, though (with the exception of car fires) it will be at the OiCs discretion.

I'm not too sure about the seatbelt vs BA set dichotomy? Myself I get in, slip my arms through the straps, then put the seatbelt on over it. I can reach my mask over my head and my helmet bag in front of me without too much issue. For me it's a case of simply having it on my back and the dangly, fiddly stuff like air lines, radios etc are in place for when I get out. Just how "rigged" i am will be proportionate to what im going to, not always a case of being fully helmeted, hooded and masked up every time.

I'm going to go against my usual "both sides of the argument" liberal jellyfish nature. I feel quite strongly that there should always be the option to leave the pump with a BA set on my shoulders. I feel more strongly that it shouldn't be quietly removed as an option when new lorries appear because the contaminants issue has overshadowed the discussion.

[Becile]

@Messyshaw trouble is our policies don't allow for that level of individual voluntary actions, for an issue such as this. We all know the potential consequences of going against policy if there were an accident.

Interestingly, we're just about to take delivery of the second round of new appliances after the first had no sets in cab,  there was feedback from all, unions, h+s etc and I don't think any of the sets have gone back in cab- there was mention of attack sets, but don't think it has happened.- if it has Ill let you know.

Coincidentally we're talking about BA here, we also require crews to be fully rigged(apart from helmets and gloves) before the appliance leaves the station, when on a shout.(not driver )

[Carl]

Id be interested to see what some of our Scottish members have to say. I am sure they have started adopting the "Clean Cab" concept which will only allow them to don BA Sets once they arrive at an incident. Our US partners have been doing it for years. 

[Becile]

Thanks for posting that Carl, as part of our team that’s still part of the contaminants piece, (and yes we have a clean cab policy) it hits home. It outweighs the dirty sets in cab argument (and any other contaminated item) in my view, even if we lose what some might consider vital time on arrival, at least we live to tell the tale.

[Dyson]

Wow guys …… with heartfelt respect I absolutely disagree 

first of all, not all US departments have taken sets out of the cab, and some that have, have revised that decision. 
secondly the sets should be clean if the appliance is in a state of operational readiness.  I don’t understand your link to a clean cab policy. 
 

it’s by no means always necessary to rig en route, but occasionally those seconds will count. If we become so risk averse as to prohibit this, then what’s next ? Can’t go into fires, might get hurt? 
 

we need to be doing what it says on the side of the truck, as quickly and as safely as possible. 

[Becile]

Dyson , I absolutely agree with your last sentence, the problem UK FRS have is deciding where that point is.

[OscarTango]

I think it's important we separate clean cab policy from having at least a couple of sets in the back. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

We've had a few nasty jobs lately, down to only one pump on station (yes I know, Woking gets out it's tiny violin). One in particular was down such a tight road, I had to shunt the lorry twice just to get a jet down to the property. Had the BA been in the near side locker we would have been snookered. It was already person's reported and we had been given and inaccurate address. 

Then I cast my mind back to being on a lorry that actually has the sets in the cab. Van alight, another country lane, spreading to a hedge in the middle of the night. I squeeze round to the BA locker. The wrack extends about half a meter from the locker. I fall in the ditch. 

No injurys, but by the time I'd wrestled the set off and collected the mask bag from a puddle, someone else had more or less knocked it down, from a distance of course but without BA. 

Had I had that lorry at the first job I mentioned it would have made everything worse. 

Now I appreciate this could well be shroud-waving on my part, but there are real practical considerations to making getting on BA slower and more fiddly, when we're already crewing with four and second appliances are a while away.

[Healdav]

I have seen, in Germany, a system where the back of the seat in the cab IS the BA system, so you just stick your arms into the harness (really a jacket, bit like a hiv-vis one, and sit there with the seatbelt on as well.

On arrival it's a simple matter of taking off the seatbelt and unclipping the seat back.

[Madhatter]

From a Scottish perspective, all new appliances have the sets in a pull out locker just behind the crew cab. The clean cab policy (and don’t quote me on this) is really strict. All dirty sets returned to locker, contaminated fire kit to be removed according to policy and double bagged and put into lockers. I Can see the benefit from a contaminants perspective.  

During Initial training we were shown pictures from an appliance RTC, and it was explained properly why we weren’t to don sets on the way to a job. But again, from an operational perspective and all the variables that come along with it, I can see why some would rather have the opportunity at least to don a set before arrival. 

I’m on the Fence on this one

[Vema11]

I also think it’s bonkers to have sets in the lockers. Our whole job is about speed, If it was my house or my family’s house I would expect nothing more. 

Our BA boards are in the cab, so we can place our tally’s in before we get off the pump, our new seats allow us to rig on the way safely whilst wearing a seat belt,  our PTO button gives the reels 25 bar pressure once the truck stops, So I can’t imagine taking a step back from this, adding 40/50 seconds fumbling about trying to get rigged whilst the public are shouting and screaming at you to do something. (Worse case scenario I know) 

We can’t always be clean and have zero exposure to contaminates it’s a dangerous job and have to take some risks.  There no excuse having dirty gear in the cabs now a days, clean it before it goes back on. 

[Bgjm21]

From a Scottish perspective it is an absolute nightmare, not sure if it’s a procurement or general build quality but the general state of the new appliances vs the old JDC built ones is shocking. That is an all round issue but especially in the set lockers. Easily becoming jammed, parts breaking or snapping off. The extra time to deploy is an absolute nightmare, we’ve trained a fair bit to try and become faster but even then you are still taking what seems like an age to get into the sets. There is also far more room for error due to rushing to don the sets. I appreciate as a professional firefighter managing that pressure is part of the job, but I refute anyone who says messing about with those sets when arriving at a persons reported does not lead to more chances for things to not be done properly. 
I cannot understand why we do not have “attack sets” as spoken about above and would take our older appliance back any day of the week.

[Br9mp81]

Questions raised about the trays coming out directly over the exhaust, leading to the sets of "3&4" being on the same side getting in each others way, its a massive catch 22, simple to have solved tbh, 2 ba seats for clean sets in cab one tray for 2 clean sets to replace them and a body bag type cover for dirty sets ppe, in the other tray

i'm sure there was a video on here years ago of the swedes coping very well with it all

[Yoffey]

West Mids don en-route, yes I appreciate the safety aspects of this but it allows rapid start up on arrival. Arguments for both sides of this but as IC I wouldn’t feel comfortable at a P/Rep on arrival having to wait for crew to don the set followed by start up.

[JonnyHolbs]

I kind of feel that this is a similar situation to BA policy: FRS policy is always to be fully dressed in PPE and seatbelted en route and to don sets at scene, in the same way that policy is to stay on walls and stay within touching distance in BA. But we all know what happens in the real world.

The law provides an exemption to those in fire service vehicles. Policy allows the FRS in question to free itself of liability in case of a safety event.

The legal exemption in question:

“[a seatbelt exemption is given to] a person driving or riding in a vehicle while it is being used for fire brigade or police purposes or for carrying a person in lawful custody (a person who is being so carried being included in this exemption);”

[OscarTango]

Do you have an original source for that? Would quite like to look up myself

[JonnyHolbs]

Sure: it’s at Legislation.gov.uk.

[Docw9520]

I recall a job two years ago it’s was a Warwickshire job house fire persons, with a west mids pump second to arrive maybe a minute or so after the Warwickshire appliance, the west mids crew donned on route as is normal but the Warwickshire appliance that was sent only had sets in lockers. They arrived and started getting a round of f***s from the general public for not doing anything (whilst donning sets from side locker) members of the public tried to access the job (because they thought the crew weren’t being quick enough) cue a couple of have a go hero’s with smoke inhalation. West mids appliance arrives already started up straight in and rescued a baby (18month old if I recall) after hearing of this job I’m a firmly in the don en route camp. 

[Harve88]

If it says fire on the tip sheet I’ll be rigging en route and I’ve never had an OIC have a problem with that

Personally that’s a risk I’m prepared to take if it means getting in quicker, you never know when it could make a difference 

If it’s an AFA then I’ll put my set on if needed to when I get there

[Percy]

The expected rigid obedience to policy in all situations is the antithesis to the premise (word used correctly and not to incorrectly describe a singular building) of what Firefighting is, everything it entails and all it’s uncertainty and often restricts those who we have trained the most from doing the job effectively.

[Jet]

[Percy]

I can’t love this enough.