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Riding with a Crew of 3?


HB12

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Just out of curiosity, anyones service on hear turning out with crews of 3? 
if so, what are the system of work that have been put in place? 
just curious because I know a lot of people are saying we might be going this way. I have my opinions on it just wanted to see the general consensus. Thanks 

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I’ve heard of some services doing it with retained crews I can’t remember 100% which ones so I won’t say incase it’s wrong.

The person I spoke to was a Sr officer in one of those brigades and tried to make out it’s a good thing and tried to explain the benefits but it’s dangerous as shouldnt be allowed in my opinion

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In west mids our BRVs turn out with a crew of 3. They are not fullsize fire engines, rather converted toyota hiluxes. They carry a fair bit of kit so in theory could deal with most incidents. They were brought in to replace full size fire engines at most stations and compliment the frontline at others.

Ive ridden one for just over four years and never felt unsafe, even at 2am when you turn onto the street and see a considerable glow from the wheelie bin fire thats caught the houses fascia. They have come in for a bit of stick but often thats from those who dont ride them often enough. After all those who ride them know the capabilities and limitations. Obviously you cant commit for rapid deployment or stage one. But brv gaffers have commandeered firefighters off an oncoming appliance to act as eco and pump operator before committing a crew, perfectly safe if theres a hydrant feed in. Some of the busiest appliances in the service are BRVs and they can and do get to bum clenching jobs first ( one of note was a brv crew that got to a persons reported house fire and effected a carrydown rescue from an upstairs bedroom before the next appliance arrived ) The crews just do what they can

The fire service relies on policy and procedure ( maybe a bit of common sense too ) but theres always the what if factor, well what if we are forced to cut appliances and people have to wait longer for help when a 4x4 with 3 trained firefighters woth a small tank of water, ladder and breaking in gear couldve got there and done something

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Lincolnshire did although not sure if still current will ride as a crew of 3 if needed for things like water relay where a crew of 3 can do but not any fires as such.

I think there was another Brigade I think Hampshire looked at mobilising a crew of 2 to things like bin fires only, if they had a Land Rover that would be sent but I think was extended to some of the other retained stations without a LR and had say 2/3 on the pump still.

Not aware of any other others other than those than run small fires type units that generally crew with 2.

Humberside turn their SFU/TRV (what ever you want to call it) out in Hull on the PDA to house fires and there could be that it is there first depending where the job is but all pumps in the city now ride 4 and they have determined that you need 10 personnel at a house fire so either 3 x pumps or 2 x pump and 1 x TRV.

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9 hours ago, Luminoki said:

In west mids our BRVs turn out with a crew of 3. They are not fullsize fire engines, rather converted toyota hiluxes. They carry a fair bit of kit so in theory could deal with most incidents. They were brought in to replace full size fire engines at most stations and compliment the frontline at others.
 

Ive ridden one for just over four years and never felt unsafe, even at 2am when you turn onto the street and see a considerable glow from the wheelie bin fire thats caught the houses fascia. They have come in for a bit of stick but often thats from those who dont ride them often enough. After all those who ride them know the capabilities and limitations. Obviously you cant commit for rapid deployment or stage one. But brv gaffers have commandeered firefighters off an oncoming appliance to act as eco and pump operator before committing a crew, perfectly safe if theres a hydrant feed in. Some of the busiest appliances in the service are BRVs and they can and do get to bum clenching jobs first ( one of note was a brv crew that got to a persons reported house fire and effected a carrydown rescue from an upstairs bedroom before the next appliance arrived ) The crews just do what they can

The fire service relies on policy and procedure ( maybe a bit of common sense too ) but theres always the what if factor, well what if we are forced to cut appliances and people have to wait longer for help when a 4x4 with 3 trained firefighters woth a small tank of water, ladder and breaking in gear couldve got there and done something

This post alarms me in so many ways, my friend. 

You are justifying the use of a machine, and it’s safety, While you tell us of commandeering further crew members adhoc to put in SSOW, and “ just doing what they can” ? 

Sounds like absolute chaos, from what you’ve described. I don’t know how long you’ve got in, but my experience tells me that this isn’t something I ever want to see. 

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Suffolk will turn out with three on main pumping appliances - 

I spoke with a senior manager there when involved with a major project and through 101 questions at him such as 'what would the 3 be expected to do at a job?"

This rural brigade is heavily retained and many stations struggle to get 60% cover - much less during the day so hugely long delays in achieve back up crews on scene

The senior manager justified 3 riders by saying SFRS must provide fire cover by.law but can't get the staff. 'So what can we do?' He said , with an aire of frustrated resignation.

Its true, what can rural FRS do when they can't get cover? It's so difficult 

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I know it’s an area of concern, and I do see the potential for risk creep. I’m mean a crew of 4 can be intensive. 
scenario being persons reported building fire. Crew of 4 first in attendance, driver is running round getting HRJ out, covering line, possibly finding a hydrant if he can. BA crew committed on rapid, OIC is now is monitoring BA as well as dealing with incident. Big workload, especially if next appliance is 20 mins away. 
now crew of 3. Yes you could probably employ defensive tactics, fight externally try and create survival conditions. Have a HR and line and everything set up for next pump so they can just commit fast. But like I said you have that moral pressure, people could take more and more risk every time. If it’s done, there needs to be strict black and white instructions on what will do and won’t do. Just my 10 pence worth

sure there are people with far more experience than me, can provide a better argument. 

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2 hours ago, Br9mp81 said:

North Yorks have a list of semi retired that come in for a day to keep RDS stations on run, also can be offered to RDS at times at FT atations

North York’s don’t ride 3 though, 4 minimum. In the short time I’ve been here, I’ve ridden 5 more times than I did in 4 years in Kent.

Kent can ride 3 at on call stations. To enable this, the crews willing to do it get extra training in operating as a crew of 3. If a pump books out with 3, an additional pump is added to the pda to account for this. Effectively gives a crew of 7 every time a pump is out with 3 abs given make up of Kent, who ever is first in attendance isn’t generally on their own for long (unless the brown fan has spun).

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4 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

The senior manager justified 3 riders by saying SFRS must provide fire cover by.law but can't get the staff. 'So what can we do?' He said , with an aire of frustrated resignation.

Its true, what can rural FRS do when they can't get cover? It's so difficult 

I am guessing this could be the same very senior manager who when WT with Essex never once rode with less than 4, presumably because he knew it was an unsafe practice.  I would make the argument that there are things he could do to improve the situation but they would all mean investing in the service rather than cutting corners and may mean Suffolk was no longer the cheapest (read most underfunded ) fire service in the country.  There is no SSOW for a crew of 3 imho, managers are just riding their luck.  One day it will go horribly wrong.  And yes I have experience of riding 3 as I have long enough in the job to remember back before Essex binned it.

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I wholeheartedly agree with @TandA riding with 3 is not a safe system of work. Some senior management are too quick in passing on the moral responsibility to local crews to turning out in their areas with insufficient crew. It is not down to firefighters to provide sufficient levels of fire cover, that's down to the Service / Brigade. If they think that riding with 3 is safe, they should be riding the pumps.😠

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To be fair, the Suffolk senior officer was in an official and very difficult meeting. He was plainly towing the party line. I am convinced if I could have had a pint with him afterwards, he may have left his guard down and told me what he really thought.

I sympathise with rural FRS bosses who have limited resources and few if any potentiallical  recruits to fill retained gaps. But riding 3 is a perilous policy.

Its also unfair on the crew to put them in positions where they may have to break the rules managers put in place as safety control measures. 

Not far from me in Bucks FRS, whole time crews at High Wycombe often have to cover 4 retained stations with insufficient crew. That's a large area with long travel distances

The Suffolk situation is far worse. Clearly filling retained vacancies is key, but how?

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North Wales now have W/T firefighters who are not attached to specific watches or stations, they attend which ever station(s) need cover be it W/T or R/T. 

Retained personnel can cover away from home stations during the day if their own cover is not compromised and it is not unknown to turn out a short crewed R/T pump to the next nearest station on standby to make up sufficent staff to man one pump that then covers both station areas.

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If I was asking about these vehicles, my questions would be around the task analysis they’ve done for the incident types they send them to. Do they up the PDA if an appliance is riding 3 to maintain personnel numbers for their SSoW?

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@Messyshaw, I do sympathise with the situation they find themself in as, being an RDS Watch Manager from a small village station in a reasonably affluent area and trying to run said station with 50% of the crew I should have, no one understands the pressures and difficulties of recruiting on call ffs better than I do.

The services have to accept though that for any solution to have a realistic chance of succeeding, it will have to involve an increase in funding and a rethink of the pay structure for on call. The rewards for relatively quiet, rural on call staff are pathetic when you look at the commitment needed.  Financial reward for the actual time commitment of being tied to within 5 mins of the station is poor, there are very limited chances to move across to WT for those who wish to do so and sometimes the demands placed on us by the service are unrealistic and take no account of the fact we all need to balance the role with family and primary employment commitments.  Relative lack of calls doesn’t reduce the commitment needed but does reduce the financial reward.

Not only can I not recruit enough, I also can’t get anyone to go for promotion due to the increase in pay from competent ff to development Cm being something like a guaranteed £50 a year for on call to go with all the extra responsibility and crud that comes with taking on a supervisory role.  More and more stations are now off the run, not short of crew, but because they have no qualified officer to take them out.  Like a number of local stations, if I go out of area or just take a few hours off then my machine is off the run as we have no other officers aside from me.  This isn’t a new issue, but as far as I can see, it isn’t being addressed and unless there is substantial change then I am not sure I see anyone stepping up by the time I retire.

7 hours ago, Supernova9 said:

If I was asking about these vehicles, my questions would be around the task analysis they’ve done for the incident types they send them to. Do they up the PDA if an appliance is riding 3 to maintain personnel numbers for their SSoW?

I understand the reason behind the question but the answer will often be yes and is used to try and justify riding with three.  We need to be clear that putting another pump on the attendance to look like you are maintaining the PDA when the 2nd machine is 10 or more minutes away and the now added third truck maybe another 15 mins behind that doesn’t get you a SSoW in those crucial early minutes where all the pressure is on the crew of 3 to “do something”.  If and when it goes wrong, it will be in those initial minutes when a crew of 3 is pressured into breaking their procedures and it goes wrong.  Dealing with a bread and butter house fire has, as we all know, been shown to involve 9 safety critical jobs, we will intervene with 4 using initial deployment and a lot of multitasking, I see no safe way of undertaking meaningful intervention with 3, no SSoW for BA and task overload rather than multitasking.

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Although in West Mids, I stopped riding the wagons before we brought in our 3-crewed BRV so to be fair, I haven’t worked with them on the front line.  However, having been on the wagons for the first 13 years of my now 23 years, when we had ‘proper’ fire engines riding 6,5 or as an absolute minimum 4, I do have the right to agree with @Dyson and @TandA, in that having a crew of 3 turning up first to a primary fire such as a house, is a worry.  It’s not supposed to happen as BRV’s were brought in (and are very good at) dealing with secondary fires, but it does happen and it’s concerning.  It’s unfair on the crews that end up in the position of having to do something while waiting for assistance, and the public who expect a fully resourced emergency service. 

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Unpopular opinion: I think it actually has a (very limited) place.

If we have a driver, an OiC and a bod on the back, we can at least do something. If we dont, what will happen? Members of the public will try and play hero. I can think of two incidents I went to in the last couple of months where that happened, and one of which ended in the worst possible way. Joe Bloggs with his garden hose has considerably less SSOW than a crew of three with PPE, a pump and backup on the way.

Follow up on that unpopular opinion: Control will use you for everything with no regard for your numbers. This is why my on-call pump doesnt crew with three anymore (it is voluntary here in Kent for on-call stations).

If crewing to three meant "absolute last resort to plug the cover gap in YOUR area and we will send two extra pumps to any incidents you go to" then cool. And often that IS the case.

However, control ultimately just see an available pump, and crews of three become the new normal. Cover is shocking both wholetime and on call, so a pump with three can easily find itself on standby somewhere it doesn't know, with unknown risks, and inadequate equipment with a crew of three. Working high rise fire with three people anyone? (yes that has happened).

So it's much like co-responding. A decent concept dashed on the gritty rocks of everyday reality.

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Always said that RDS, is full time committment for far less than part time pay, a friend who was RDS got rejected for WT again ,then spend a day on standby at a WT station, he handed his pager in after that.

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In Hampshire the LRP's (light rescue pump) can ride with less than 4. HOWEVER, it's call sign changes and they then only respond to the agreed call types. Small fire in the open for example. A LRP is designated as a papa 6. If crewing of four is not achieveable it becomes a papa 5. We have one WDS station where this happens as each watch has a crew of 10 with three allowable extractions which leaves them basically always at 7 but with two pumps (a P7 and a P6/5). If they respond in P7 to a job they immediately make up for the P5 which effectively gives them 7 crew (this doesn't affect the oncoming PDA).

There are a few RDS stations that have them now and I'm not entireley sure how it works if they're turned out to a fire domestic but only three turn in though... I need to find out.

Just for clarity though - if a LRP is sat at a station with a crew of 2 or 3 and the P7 goes out, that station will get a standby truck sent in - the LRP will not be left to be sent to whatever call comes in (it is effectively a small fires vehicle if crewing of 4 is not achieved).

There have been discussions around riding with less than 4 and the answers were as you'd expect.

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