SCUBA/Dive Unit

[CaptainFlack]

After reading online the tragic deaths of 4 people over the weekend, including one in my service area and as the days are getting hotter and temptation might get the better of some, what are peoples thoughts of having a fully trained SCUBA unit for going sub surface ready to respond?

I'm sure most if not all Ops personnel would be aware of the survivability model regarding time on the clock should anyone need rescuing from water and every brigade will have some sort of Water Incident Unit/boat with operatives trained to various levels - First Responder, Still Water etc but we are dependent on our Police colleagues for anything sub surface in the North West who are based out of our county meaning lengthy travel on blues - this is certainly not a swipe at them, they are a professional, highly trained, specialist unit and the full scope for doing much of the underwater work does lie with the police than us but what I'm talking about is a dive team in a defined rescue capacity to be able to intervene and possibly make a difference, against the clock.

I know various US Departments have these units and most likely parts of Europe have them as well but is it high time we in the UK looked at something similar?

Before the talk of training/MoC, equipment etc. The question would need to be asked if a unit would be beneficial to rescues and the dreaded but vitally important Safe Systems of Work debate must be heard first.

What's your thoughts?

[Vema11]

I do absolutely agree with you that having one dedicated team in the north west isnt ideal or good for the public, but no doubt down to money. 

I’m not an expert at all, but my understanding is that sub-surface rescue is high risk and something a lot of brigades maybe don’t have the appetite for, also this is a low frequency event and chance of survival etc. But I do think it needs looking at and exploring as It would help the public and firefighter safety. 

[Messyshaw]

The LFB assessed this many years ago

The chief at the time was very concerned about the open water adjacent to Heathrow and London City and keen that his legacy would be an Underwater Rescue Capability for the Capital 

The Mets Underwater Search team were consulted and soon sunk the idea. They pointed out the PPE, manpower and procedures required for a rapid scuba rescue team would mean one unit at every station, permanently dressed in a wet suit in readiness 

Sadly he left no such legacy

[Luminoki]

Norfolk used to have one but it was more geared to recovery than rescue

Dive unit

[Jet]

In addition to the obvious unlikelihood of a successful sub-surface rescue by a scuba team already stated, it would also be against commercial diving regulations to deploy a team so expediently. 

[Becile]

Hugely expensive to run and maintain for what is high risk, relatively low frequency events (you could argue on the frequency) which is why I guess most dive teams are no more.

We and the police use SGI, who have all the gear , an extensive team ,years of experience , and are very good, they regularly dive for Mispers for the police and are mobilised for us when our limited sub surface rescue capability has produced no results, or moving towards body recovery phase.

Yes they charge, no idea how much any more, but it isn’t cheap....not sure you can put a price on stuff like this.

[Luminoki]

Due to the general cost not many police services have a dive team, in both my retained and wholetime we’ve occasionally had the need for one ( both covered by large police services ) and more often than not it comes from Nottinghamshire police

If anyone wants to know more about it, check out the books by Mackenzie Moulton, a former MET diver

[CaptainFlack]

Costs and the good old risk vs benefit makes it a non starter.

I often wonder if outcomes might be different if we had the unit already in place.

[BurtMacklin]

Well it takes seconds to drown and even with a 6 minute attendance time which is generous for the vast majority of the UK it would always be a recovery mission and not a rescue 

[Dyson]

It’s not practical, for rescue. I know the guy who used to run the Norfolk one until it got canned, too expensive. 

However, it might work better at river stations. LFB and Merseyside are the only river stations I know of ?

[Noddy]

Im no expert but a dive team would need to be at the same location when the person went under for it to be anything other than a body recovery job. 

[Percy]

I wholly disagree with the premise that in all cases of a casualty going sub surface it is Body Recovery. This must be challenged.

It’s the same as saying “Bedroom? This time of night?! They will be dead anyway”

Who are we to say that?… we are not A&E consultants and certainly not God.! We are however, professional rescuers, and we should at least have some form of alternative in each service where there is a large water risk/history of drownings to at least attempt Rescue to that of the Body Recovery tasked Police team which are now often regional resources and therefore have long turn out times.

Ultimately drowning is displaced asphyxiation - as it is with fatal smoke inhalation. Lots do result in death but as we know from our bread and butter, lots get successful resuscitated too!

If not us who? If not now, when? JFK

Having worked in Surrey and seen skills ‘outsourced’ to a private (read ‘for profit’) company, I find it extremely morally, ethically and professionally ‘uncomfortable’ that this creeping privatisation or out sourcing of specialist skills, or ones we could easily take on, is being justified by us! 

In an ever changing world with ever changing demands, if we do not ‘adapt and overcome’ we will be left behind as our ‘traditional’ role is on demand.

In this next White Paper and the likely FRSA 2022 amendment, if we don’t take on new skills like EMR, MTA, Flood Response or proactively seek ways to provide services, we are turkeys voting for Christmas.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mypoolsigns.com/blog/bring-cold-water-drowning-victims-back-life/%3famp=1

[BurtMacklin]

Surely it would be easier and cheaper for the police dive units to respond as rescuers? 

[Messyshaw]

@Percy "Who are we to say that?"  Hmmmmm. How about a senior officer in the Met Police Diving Team?🤔

I spoke to the Met's underwater team just after the LFB's proposal was sunk (pun intended!). They were engaged in a training session at the Welsh Harp reservoir in Hendon when we were buying ice creams at the same location🙄. So we stayed to observe their training. It was a real eye opener

Their Officer in Charge was rather critical of the LFB as he had formally communicated with the LFB saying its a non-starter many months before the LFB spent a fortune investigating the viability of a dive RESCUE team.

His view was that whilst firefighters may don BA en route en route to a house job, then  immediately get to work in BA - with 2 BA wearers, a ECO and pump operator (so a team of four) - diving  requires a bigger team of support staff, even when a diver is committed in shallow waters

He pointed out that a decent well fitting wet or dry suit with comms can not be donned en route or even in a hurry, so there are significant differences in BA and SCUBA wearing. Record keeping, the use of safety lines and a whole lot of technical stuff means a rapid entry is not possible.

I acknowledge your motivation and the need to protect and where necessary expand the fire service role within the community. With your experience in Surrey, you have every right to question others who you feel are undermining the work the UK FRS do - or could do. This is not necessarily a medical issue insofar as to the survivability of drown victims, its about maintaining safe systems of work when diving and of course, legal compliance 

[Percy]

1 hour ago, BurtMacklin said:

surely it would be easier and cheaper for the police dive units to respond as rescuers? 

The Police? Where does that stop? Outsourcing some work already to private contractors, suggesting Police have a water rescue team, HART doing lots of our work and looking to do more… they will want cutting equipment soon.

Shall we just wait for Fires then?… and prepare to watch what we have disappear for good?

If only there was a dedicated emergency service that specialised in Rescue.

[BurtMacklin]

This does not embrace the JESIP principles 🤣

[Jet]

The crux of the issue is that we are subject to all legal regulations and this includes commercial diving. Only if we gained an exemption from such regulations could we effectively deploy a dive rescue team with any hope of saving anyone. I'm experienced in scuba diving and I could confidently don a scuba set and be in the water in a matter of minutes. But recreational diving is different gravy to commercial and previous posts have explained why. I'd definitely be up for incorporating scuba into our existing water/technical rescue units if somehow we could deploy it on our own terms. But that simply isn't possible as things stand.

[Steve]

On 20/07/2021 at 08:25, Becile said:

We and the police use SGI, who have all the gear , an extensive team ,years of experience , and are very good, they regularly dive for Mispers for the police and are mobilised for us when our limited sub surface rescue capability has produced no results, or moving towards body recovery phase.

Aren't they the outfit that I heard had taken on (or taken away) a lot of Surrey's more advanced rescue capability???

On 04/10/2021 at 08:43, Percy said:

I wholly disagree with the premise that in all cases of a casualty going sub surface it is Body Recovery. This must be challenged.

It’s the same as saying “Bedroom? This time of night?! They will be dead anyway”

Who are we to say that?… we are not A&E consultants and certainly not God.! We are however, professional rescuers, and we should at least have some form of alternative in each service where there is a large water risk/history of drownings to at least attempt Rescue to that of the Body Recovery tasked Police team which are now often regional resources and therefore have long turn out times.

Ultimately drowning is displaced asphyxiation - as it is with fatal smoke inhalation. Lots do result in death but as we know from our bread and butter, lots get successful resuscitated too!

If not us who? If not now, when? JFK

Having worked in Surrey and seen skills ‘outsourced’ to a private (read ‘for profit’) company, I find it extremely morally, ethically and professionally ‘uncomfortable’ that this creeping privatisation or out sourcing of specialist skills, or ones we could easily take on, is being justified by us! 

In an ever changing world with ever changing demands, if we do not ‘adapt and overcome’ we will be left behind as our ‘traditional’ role is on demand.

In this next White Paper and the likely FRSA 2022 amendment, if we don’t take on new skills like EMR, MTA, Flood Response or proactively seek ways to provide services, we are turkeys voting for Christmas.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mypoolsigns.com/blog/bring-cold-water-drowning-victims-back-life/%3famp=1

What he says!!!!  🔼 👏👏 You are the traditional Rescue service. There have been plenty of successful rescues from drowning incidents where crews weren't sitting round the corner with rigged divers. At Poplar in the 90's (due to cold weather) a kid was rescued from Limehouse basin and rescusitated by the Green Watch 15 minutes after going under. The whole premise of this should be finding reasons to do it, not to avoid doing it.  

I always worked on the basis of the people in need of assistance were my kids and those I were sending in to do the Rescue were my Brothers or sisters... Put yourself in the space the victim's family inhabit with the professional care for you own people as if they are your loved ones as well. Kept me the right side of some sh1tty incidents for 26 of my 31 years. 

I know that is it a different Country, with a far more informal attitude towards H&S, but many large US departments have diver Rescue teams who seems to deploy under the traditional ethos of a fast response (have a look at some of the YouTube video's for the likes of Rescue 1 etc. 

But in that very same city, you have the Police ESU, who I have personally witnessed arrive at an RTC where FDNY had already deployed cutting gear and they just jumped off and started operating on the opposite side of the car... No co-ordination, co-operation or even a perfunctory conversation. I looked aghast at the FDNY Battalion Chief I was riding with and he shrugged it off... "It is what it is" Same can be said for dive rescue. as witnessed on another of the YouTube video's FDNY Rescue deployed divers, along came a NYPD helicopter, about 30ft from the surface (god know what that was doing for conditions below the surface) and a handful of divers just jumped straight into the water to get involved int he Rescue. I have absolutely no doubt, despite having relationships with people in HART that that shocking level of land grabbing off of us wouldn't cause them to so much as blink. 

They'd (along with plenty of others who don't like your strength of unity) would happily see you as an 'orange light' service, trundling along with a bowser with a pump fitted and some hose and branches for external Firefighting only, once the proper work had been done.

"Once you've done here Lad's there is a spillage up on the high street that needs washing down and a blocked drain over on the Riverview Estate"

[Mess6311]

On 04/10/2021 at 08:43, Percy said:

I wholly disagree with the premise that in all cases of a casualty going sub surface it is Body Recovery. This must be challenged.

If not us who? If not now, when? JFK

I couldn't agree more mate. This is the very reason our updated policy on Water Rescue submerged casualties is so wrong. We are in a line of work where "never" shouldn't be part of our policies let alone thoughts. We always work on a risk vs benefit principle which I fully agree with, but to stipulate "never" removes our ability to act and removes the element of ops discretion.

[Becile]

@Steveindeed they are...years of funding cuts meant that it just couldn’t be maintained in house. 

[Steve]

@Becile That is criminal.... 

[BurtMacklin]

Well if we’re having scuba on the trucks because we shouldn’t give up on people we should also be doing MTFA. As with water, you stand a much better chance of surviving a gun shot if someone comes and drags you out for medical treatment. 

[Jet]

Happy to do MTA once they sort out the insurance/payout issues and actually give us the equipment and training to do the job.  No one would expect any less if they were told (not volunteered) to do scuba diving. 

[BurtMacklin]

I think I’ve made my point badly so apologies. I brought MTA up because of the emotive responses around doing everything we can to rescue people which I whole heartedly agree with and MTA being used as a pivot for better pay and conditions. Which I disagree with, not the better pay and conditions part!! using it (unsuccessfully) to gain leverage. 

[HB12]

On 20/07/2021 at 18:02, Dyson said:

It’s not practical, for rescue. I know the guy who used to run the Norfolk one until it got canned, too expensive. 

However, it might work better at river stations. LFB and Merseyside are the only river stations I know of ?

I know him, work with him indirectly.