EDBA at Jobs

[Luminoki]

So scrolling through twitter and see pics of this job kicking off in North London ( and at one point our very own Steve was in charge ) 

Now correct me if im wrong but are those BA sets with the red covers EDBA? Or are they the twin cylinder Interspiro sets favoured by Shropshire and possibly Essex? If they are EDBA is that a common tactic when dealing with building fires? 

Second question is that two of the wearers seem to have white stickers on their lids. Does that mean that they're FRU members? ( saw footage of the Sandilands crash where FRU crews had something similar on their lids ) Are FRU firefighters routinely deployed onto pumps or was a FRU mobilised to the job

[Steve]

Yes and Yes.... They are EDBA sets worn by the FRU Crews.

In 30 years this was one of the most complex jobs I've ever been on. I wasn't in charge but the DAC and AC asked me to take a view on it upon my arrival and I then took the role of Ops Commander. IT was a row of shops extended out the back by a hotchpotch of ISO containers, commercial refrigerators all under a massive lean-to that extended into a block of flats and a large house all of which were connected. The fire was in dozens of voids as well as creeping between the concrete floor slab above the shops back to the front and into the flats above which had wooden floors on joists built on top of the concrete slab.

As crews arrived it had already spread into the flats at the back (the ground floor of which was all part of the store room) requiring ladder rescues from above. Crews in BA & EDBA were inside it, above it, underneath it and all four sides of it and we still could not get to all areas of hidden fire, we tried Cobra, we had grinders cutting sides out of ISO containers, sledge hammers knocking in blocked up windows and finally USAR putting triangle cuts in external walls to allow water to be put into the heart of the fire. The flats in the middle ended up with two unsupported walls preventing offensive firefighting in the middle of the complex.

I’d estimate the labyrinth of storage areas that ran through behind and at the sides fo the shop and underneath the flats and house next door had more stock in them than a large Tesco’s… literally floor to ceiling. I left about 8 hours after getting there (it had already been going a few hours, I got ordered on the 15 pump make up) we finally had it opened up enough to see almost everywhere. The only bit left was the area under the flats at the back.

A good few members of this forum were at the job today and all of them worked like demons…. Hats off to everyone there, most of all the local Orthodox Jewish Community who kept a constant supply of dustbin lids sized Pizzas coming onto the Fireground all afternoon.

6 Firefighters removed to hospital for checks for heat exhaustion and smoke inhalation from the ladder rescues.

[LiamG]

I was one of them and it was a real learning curve. In all honesty it's only after reading the guvnors detailled explanation of the lay out and construction that it makes sense. Everyone worked really hard and wore more than once, communication was brilliant and as for the local community... it's hard to explain just how much you want to hug someone who comes upto you whilst you're sweating away and starving with a cool box full of various ice creams for you to have your pick from!

[Steve]

 

[Aspire]

On 11/06/2017 at 18:38, Luminoki said:

Are FRU firefighters routinely deployed onto pumps or was a FRU mobilised to the job

An FRU? Try 7 of our 12 at one point, albeit 2 of those were reliefs for the first 5.

Whole watches at FRU stations are trained as FRU techs now so will routinely be found on pumps at stations that house FRU's.

As for the job, I went on as part of the first 10 pump relief, 4hrs after it begun and I knew from twitter that it was still very much alight. My recruit, on their 4th shift, got two wears in with a very experienced member of my crew. That explanation from the Boss will give all of that were there a greater understanding. Certainly me, as I spent most of my 6hrs supporting one of the Command Units, so didnt spend as much time as I would have liked at the coal face.

[Messyshaw]

Didn't look too bad, perhaps a 2 x hose reel at best. I reckon you lot lost it to me 

(Taking cover!!)

[Steve]

Ha Ha.... I think if someone in the flats had have responded to the alarm actuating at 1am instead of ignoring it, you maye be right.

[Carefree]

I was there too and yes, it was a real headache of a job.

The hospitality by the local community was amazing, many of them regularly walking around offering hot and cold food and drinks. Guv, I was one of a small group of Ff's taking a well earned break to take on food and water, and you walked straight past us and as we were devouring huge bowls of chips provided by the locals.  I would have offered you a handful but you looked a tad preoccupied.

I was a BA rider yesterday and initially we were briefed to enter the lean to to fire fight, but this decision was quickly reversed when it was decided that the integrity of the Flats was in question.  I was in sector 3 and spent much of my time between the two buildings up on the balcony with a jet (as can be seen in the last of Steves pictures above), hose managing and assisting the TL crew by using a thermal image camera directing them to various hotspots.

[Bgjm21]

Out of curiosity why not just have every BA set an EDBA set? is it a purely financial decision? 

[Aspire]

Wearing an EDBA set is a punishing exercise; the extra duration is supposed to be for travelling to the fire rather than spending longer at the scene of operations. If every set were EDBA, crews would routinely spend longer in jobs where there was not a greater travel distance. When you couple this with how well our kit does at protecting us from the heat, it is easy to see how we would move into the realms of crews regularly encountering heat stress and the like;due to these variables, it's a no from me.

[Cardiff_Fire]

To the best of my knowledge from the shop floor (so may just be the duty rumour) EDBA was not purchased in my Brigade so as not to "encourage" people to stay in longer than is deemed safe.  As an individual I can see the advantages at certain incidents and particularly in the way that West Mids use it in partnership with normal BA (so I've heard)

"Rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it..."

[Carefree]

BM96 a non EDBA set in the LFB will give you around 30 minutes whilst under air (this is give or take a few minutes either side, depending on conditions and how hard you are working etc).  Trust me, that 30 minutes can often be about as much as someone can take before the body starts shutting down.  

As Aspire rightly says, EDBA is designed for travel to scene of Ops rather than working at scene of Ops,  So on jobs like yesterday's whereby the scene is complex and the layout is vast EDBA is perfect.

Luckily for 99% of incidents SDBA sets (standard duration breathing apparatus) are adequate.

[Cardiff_Fire]

Out of interest what additional control measures are in place when EDBA Is use? Sorry to derail thread, just curious.

[Aspire]

When EDBA is in use, we move to Stage 2 BA control, this means the entry control officer must be a minimum of a Crew Manager. Additionally, the emergency crew will also need EDBA as they need to match or exceed the protection in use.

[Luminoki]

I wouldnt know much about it as only our USAR is equipped with it. Correct me if im wrong but do HART have it?

[BurtMacklin]

HART only have EDBA sets, as well as several other RPE options which aren't breathing apparatus. 

[Luminoki]

So theoretically if a HART crew member was required to go under air into a hot zone, a ff escort would also need EDBA? Interesting scenario for those services that either dont have it or have it readily available

[Aspire]

Clarify what you mean by hot zone as HART should not be operating in heat and smoke, just a potentially irrespirable atmosphere.

[Steve]

1 hour ago, Luminoki said:

So theoretically if a HART crew member was required to go under air into a hot zone, a ff escort would also need EDBA? Interesting scenario for those services that either dont have it or have it readily available

HART cannot and will not (despite their numerous attempts in my personal experience) be allowed into any area where heat and the products of combustion are present. They are not trained to move safely in smoke, they are not trained to work in high temperatures and their PPE is not suitable for working in fires.

At a fire in a 31 storey hotel/apartment block in 2011, I did authorise the deployment of a HART team with Firefighters to an upper floor as a two week old infant was reported (but wasn't thankfully) to be in respiratory distress. I only did that once I had confirmed with the Bridgehead that the fire was controlled, many floors lower down but the ventilation of static smoke would take too long for paramedics to safely reach the floor where the baby was. I also had that decision and my rationale recorded.

The terminology 'hot zone' is now widely accepted as relating to firearms incidents, particularly marauding terrorists incident where hostile persons may be at large with weapons or explosive devices.

[JelHead]

Is that just a London policy that HART are not to commit to the hot zone? I know that the reasons for HART to have BA are debatable but the HART EDBA course is run at Morton and recruits are trained in the fire house and have to demonstrate safe working in smoke and rescue of casualties in such an environment, I have been on jobs where HART have deployed in a persons reported building fire, on reflection it does seem a similar situation to what Steve has mentioned. I will add I am not in fire service and am only a special operations paramedic not a HART paramedic but some clarity would be interesting 

[Cashybai]

I got slightly railed at the PRC of an 8p high rise fire I had where (pre fire survival calls days) I sent a HART team up with an EDBA team to a gent suffering an asthma attack on the 15th floor. Fire was out, but 19 floors smoke logged. Was told subsequently that HART firegear isn't fire retartdant..The mind boggles...

We used to provide escorts for both HART & BTP, BTP having rebreathers with an immense capacity, their bobbies would turn around when LFB come out, whether they've still got an hour plus remaining duration, or not..

To confirm what Aspire has sed, us bods at FRU stations are all qualified as FRU/EDBA plus whatever the relevant specialisations are. We're all wearing the white FRU sticker on our lids (anyone else remember the old Black on Orange ED stickers we used to have?) so you'll often see PL crews wearing the FRU stickered lids, plus the odd Guvnor riding a certain West End PL with white FRU adorned Lid..

[Steve]

That was also the fire where the cladding nearly went wasn't it Cashy? If it was, I remember saying at the time. we are going to get unlucky one day with the cladding?

[Cashybai]

That's the one Steve..Immediately prior to the fire survival guidance policy coming out, https://goo.gl/images/wtnxw4 It was definitely starting to go, started on the flat roof above the entrance door, another one where the tower ventilation/ smoke vents maybe didn't quite work as planned...

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