Guidelines During BA Initial Course.

[Geeta77]

Does everyone's service still teach Guidelines during a BA Initial course? I am pondering whether to float the idea of removing the teaching of them on our Initial BA course and further imparting knowledge of Thermal Imaging and Tactical ventilation. We do explore these topics, just probably not to the extent I would like due to the day spent on guidelines. 

For information the course is currently 2 weeks long, with a further 2 days solely on PPV. 

[JonnyHolbs]

We do still cover it in London. I’m yet to meet anyone that has used them in anger though.

I was having a chat the other day with one of the guys on my watch and the general consensus was that if you’re committing to a building with such a complex layout that it requires guidelines, you’ll probably arrive at the conclusion that you shouldn’t commit anyone anyway, because searching off them is so time consuming and hazardous.

[Carl]

I am sure we still teach it in GMFRS as we still carry them, although they form no part of any real procedures anymore. Its a good question and I guess the likes of @CaptainFlack who has recently passed out from GMFRS will tell you. 

[Luminoki]

In H&W 6 stations are designated as laying stations, the rest are searching stations. On phase 1 BA, you have an afternoon session on them laying one around the appliance bays. Then you go back to station and just do loads of training in preparation for your phase 2. Ive concluded that, with all of the kit we carry on a truck, if we have to resort to guidelines at an incident then its gone to pot

[Jet]

GMFRS cover them on the recruits course but not extensively and they only cover traversing a guideline not laying it. As far as I know we do not search off of guidelines and we don’t have branch guidelines either. I believe the only reason we have kept them is for the extensive range of comms tunnels we have. 

[JonesMrJones]

On the training course for Avon we did an afternoon on them. Theory presentation then we watched as a pair worked round the centre laying it. Didn’t get hands on one till on station, where we have done at least one guideline drill a month. 

No one likes them and the people on my watch have said that they will pretty much point blank refuse to enter the risk if one is in use as they do not think they are safe at all. 

I have just completed my six month assessment course last week and the L&D team showed us the new BA Board and the guideline section has been removed. They also mentioned that Avon are trying to get rid of them. 

[HoldFast]

I know of a job they were used on in Hull a long time ago and they burnt through. I wouldn’t fancy trusting my life on a bit of string either to be honest.

[Jet]

I still believe they have a place and it will only be when they are consigned to history that there will be a big job somewhere when they’re needed. The lines themselves are not dangerous at all. What is dangerous is that like many things, we don’t get the time or support to regularly train on them and this leads to mishaps which then inevitably leads to accidents.

I’d love to use guidelines as an example of why we should be spending the majority of our time training on this and a multitude of other topics rather than incessantly chasing CFS targets. 

[Geeta77]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Just out of interest, were you taught that every guideline laying and following team must also take media in with them as well? Seems to be an often missed point during drills this. We surely shouldn't be sending anyone into any risk area without it? Also stated quite clearly in OGBA and NOG Foundation Doc

[Crog]

We don’t have them in Kent and have nothing in place of them. No mention of them at all during our iba.

As someone mentioned, if a job is at a point of needing them, can’t see any of our oic’s sending us in.

[JonesMrJones]

I’m pretty sure the last time they were used in Avon was this Leo’s supermarket

No one I have spoke to has ever used them in anger. 

[Luminoki]

One if the old ‘uns on my watch had used one whilst wearing a GTS!

[Percy]

Guidelines should be collected and put through wood chippers.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

It’s 2019...time to retire guidelines from operational service. 

[CaptainFlack]

Guidelines are taught about and we did practice laying them on our recruits course and as Jamie says we just use them now solely to get to scene of operation. No searching or branch guidelines anymore. It would take a brave OiC to deploy them at jobs and I'm sure even @Carls department would be over their shoulder.

GMFRS were 99% ready for them to be removed from operations however one nasty job in some tunnels underground meant they're still going - For now

[Jet]

The guidelines argument is sort of similar to the chicken and the egg argument. We as a service have become afraid to commit with and use guidelines because history dictates they have dire consequences. But are those consequences the result of the guidelines themselves being inherently dangerous? Or have they become dangerous through a lack of training and understanding? If this is the case then what is next to go? Ladders? BA??

[HoldFast]

I do agree Jamie that lack of training leads to mishaps but am wondering if just getting rid of them altogether would be the way to go. For the amount they are used would dedicating the time to training on them be better spent elsewhere? 

I do think no matter how much training on them we have, they still come with high risk. We all know how easy it is to become disorientated in a hot and smoky environment and if that happens when on a guideline then you’re relying on using the tabs to work out which direction to exit the building, not to mention the other added pressures you could be under at the time.

I also think being on a guideline firefighters are less likely to feel their way through the building, and may try to progress along the line without truly taking notice of landmarks and features along the route, arriving at the scene of operations without fully understanding how they got there. This could severely compromise the ability to make a quick exit from the building should anything go wrong.

On my initial BA course we were shown a case study involving a warehouse fire in London in 1991 where two firefighters died while using a guideline. I know there was more involved than just getting lost, but it’s one that stuck with me as it made me realise how easily things can go wrong. If things are kept simple then things are less likely to go wrong and the more I think about it the more guidlines and particularly branchlines add perhaps unnecessary complications into an incident. Apologies if anyone knew them, I just think it may be a relevant event to remember given the topic. RIP Terry Hunt and David Stokoe.

[JonnyHolbs]

I see the logic in using them say, for example, in a rescue not involving fire. But given the complexity of using them and therefore the amount of time spent training required to prevent skill fade, maybe that time could be better spent elsewhere. If you haven’t used guidelines in over six months, would you feel confident entering a building knowing you would have to search off them in a safe, fast manner? I’ve covered them recently during training and a bit during on station drills, and I’m still not overly confident with their use.

[Jet]

13 hours ago, HoldFast said:

For the amount they are used would dedicating the time to training on them be better spent elsewhere? 

You could very easily say the same about a great deal of equipment we carry. I've only put up a 135 once in anger yet it's a drill yard favourite. Why is that? My guess is because one day you might actually need it, and it needs to go up right.

With regards to guideline deployment, I'm in agreement with previous posts that the days of using them in a fire are gone. We have better and more efficient methods of protecting ourselves so much so that they should not be used in a hot and smokey environment as you say. But if you look at the bigger picture regarding what type of incidents we could possibly use them for (non-fire incidents) then I think that warrants them staying. No more searching off them, and no more branch guidelines (like we have adopted in GMFRS) and just use them as a tool to get to a scene of operations. I look at case studies such as Colville Road and often think that in our ever-changing built landscape, we are going to be attending more rescues of workers in precarious positions, including trapped in vast underground structures and tunnels (just look at the work involved in Crossrail). Those are the incidents that are going to involve you getting off that piece of equipment that just last week you muttered 'what a waste of time' when doing a routine or small drill on it.

Also, take a look at the below photo taken in Paris just last week. Two pieces of equipment being used here to great effect (hook ladder and lowering line) that were confined to our history books long ago because they were either too dangerous or under-used (albeit more modern variants being used here).

Food for thought.

[BurtMacklin]

The thing is it’s such a simple bit of kit which does the job of providing a tactile indication of direction perfectly. I’m surprised people don’t feel they can maintain a base level of competence in their use and so want them removed from service. 

[Geeta77]

Some very interesting points raised there in favour of them. It's an interesting analogy with the 13.5m ladder but I am pretty certain that gets used country wide way more than guidelines ever do. 

I would personally like my Service to maybe only let certain appliances carry them and hence lessen the training implications my end for all recruits. Surely they will never be used in a dynamic phase of an incident so could be requested when needed. 

[Luminoki]

In H&W 6 stations are designated to lay them, they’re strategically placed so a crew could get to an incident to lay the guideline within 30 minutes. These stations will often train with a couple of searching stations so the training is more productive. Something like that perhaps?

[Geeta77]

Yeah. So I'm guessing all guideline training is then picked up on station

[Jet]

You could easily have all firefighters trained in traversing a guideline and a familiarisation in how they are laid. No need to have obscuration as they won’t be used in fire conditions. Maybe just practice in a dark environment with use of lamps and other lighting. No need to carry water either. Massively simplify it and reduce the fear of actually using and training with them. 

[HoldFast]

Fair point about the 135 mate. Definitely an interesting debate either way.