Mini Pumps

[Bgjm21]

With the news that my local service is considering introducing them thought it might be intresting to hear members of the sites views and whether they have them in their brigades and what the operational impact has been? 

[Carl]

Manchester have talked about these for years and how 2nd pumps will be dropped and replaced by these detailed within this story. However, we have not yet seen them and as far as I know, they are still sat their waiting to be kitted out. Greater Manchester is experiencing busy times at the moment, standby duties has been overhauled and Im not convinced we will see them in the same guise we were initially going to. I guess we will watch this space.

[Matt]

My local area has lost 5 full sized pumps in the last 6 or 7 years and 2 have been replaced by these.

They have their place don't get me wrong but there is a time or the place.  If you want smaller pumps the Devon & Somerset/Warwickshire built ones, not to be confused with the North Yorkshire ones are ideal if you need something smaller.  Now Hampshire have designed something in the middle of the two (as seen here), I've not yet seen in person but have seen other pictures and they have their place too.

I feel quite strongly on this topic living in the area where so many pumps have been lost but with such a big industrial risk there are only 3 pumps in the area with the next ones possibly well over 30 minutes away.  Only yesterday was one of the Isuzu's mobilised and two further pumps had to attend (waiting on what happened here) but house fire persons comes in thats 3, RTC comes in that's 3.  There have been too many close misses already although they want you thinking everything is perfect when it really isn't.

[Bgjm21]

2 hours ago, Carl said:

Manchester have talked about these for years and how 2nd pumps will be dropped and replaced by these detailed within this story. However, we have not yet seen them and as far as I know, they are still sat their waiting to be kitted out. Greater Manchester is experiencing busy times at the moment, standby duties has been overhauled and Im not convinced we will see them in the same guise we were initially going to. I guess we will watch this space.

Funny you say that Carl clicked your link and the top read story is "massive fire in oldham" and "huge fire in salford", guess you weren't kidding!

Matt, those looks very similar to the West Mids BRV's. Please correct me if i'm wrong but is the devon summerset/warwickshire not still fully kitted out pumps?

I must say I do agree with you, these are cuts via the backdoor, not designed to modernize or improve the service but simply to try and masquerade as if there is still a sufficient level of fire cover.

[Matt]

Yes they are built the same as the WMFS ones but I believe WMFS carry more kit on theirs and the Humberside ones are overweight as they are!  Local one has just turned up at a job and someone said what use is this, you will need more water to put it out (conifers on fire)!!

Devon & Somerset and Warwickshire ones are quite well kitted out, it does lack some bits and BA is in the locker but beats the Isuzu type truck and has ladders.  I got some shots of a Warwickshire one last year, give me 5 and I will post them up.

Nearside lockers, offside lockers and pump bay.

[Bgjm21]

Some really interesting stuff there matt, cheers.

So what's the consensus are these here to stay and something that will become common place in the future? I know west yorkshire had them and has recently got rid of them for example

[Matt]

This is the Hampshire version turning out this afternoon (they have 2 at present), it was off to a MP12 thatch fire a friend of mine caught this.

Personally this type of thing has its place i.e. on a multi pump station but no to replace a dedicated appliance and not on a retained station unless you have massive crewing issues/and or access issues. 

[Bgjm21]

Are Hampshires versions being used at RDS stations for the most part?

[Jet]

As previously pointed out they are just a cost cutting exercise, nothing else to it. I can definitely see the benefits of smaller vehicles particularly in city centres that are only committed to very small fires and other incidents (not AFAs). But they should complement resources not replace them otherwise they are cuts dressed up as 'modernisation'. 

[Bgjm21]

Even that is shakey ground in my view, without sufficient weight and attack small fires could become big ones and the hazards and situations crew members could be exposed to if initial call information is incorrect is just not worth it in my opinion.

[Keith]

The minimum we should be going to any fire is with a crew of four on a proper fire engine, not a van. I would concede that the smaller type Warwickshire appliance in one of Matts posts is an option, particularly for rural areas where something smaller is necessary, provided it is crewed with at least four.

Would be interested to here the experience of anyone who has crewed a BRV or similar.

[Br9mp81]

Last year there was a bit about this on a TV programme,iirc it was wmfs, big wig white shirt saying this was the way ahead etc, he was not happy when a fftr pointed out his biggest fear was coming across a proper job in transit and having to try to do something in front of the public,the uk frs was one of the few gov/la depts. that worked why are they hell bent on fixing something that is not broken.

[Bgjm21]

Because apparently it's more efficient to roll a truck that can handle 70% of emergencies opposed to one that can handle 100%...?

[Cashybai]

Hmm, I know there's certain parts of the country where the very nature of the towns/villages (Polruan & Fowey spring to mind) require a smaller vehicle due to access issues, however, I've always said this is a huge accident waiting to happen...

 

[Matt]

It's happened this weekend and could of been worse.  SFU mobilised to this job, member of public rings station on none emergency line saying you do know this is a barber shop fire who in turn call control and 2 pumps also get mobilised.

Turned out to be several tonnes of waste on fire in an outbuilding to the rear.  I'm just waiting for it to be another shed on fire and turns out to be a house fire persons.  It's going to happen.

[Matt]

if you have a look here and on the 3rd page you can get an idea of what the Hampshire one carries (this is on the Iveco chassis).

[Bgjm21]

What's the Hampshire one crewed with? Does it turnout to anything or is it targeted? How many real fire engines have gone down there in favour of that?

Ive heard about Hampshires SAVE approach to things and it sounds like something that will work as imagined in one in every hundred incidents..

[Matt]

Hampshire are looking to implement 3 types of pump, a RP (standard WrL), FRV these Ivecos and then a smaller chassis Volvo WrT type.  

At the moment the Iveco has replaced a WrT and a H4T (Steyr Puch 4x4) from what I have been told.  

This all forms part of their risk review plan that got approved last time around.

I cannot find the document explaining it but the plan is to have 27 RP's (enhanced), 22 LRP (intermediate) and 29 FRV (first response).

[Bgjm21]

Is that the future of the fire service I wonder? 

It it wouldn't shock me if 5-10 years down the line we look at these vehicles as madness and remove them all from service highly doubt they would be replaced by a pump again though

[Matt]

The Iveco example Hampshire are trailing (2 currently) I cannot see working.  I can see a smaller vehicle such as smaller Volvo or Iveco type appliance been the way forward but crewing like in North Yorkshire dropped to 2 or 3!

There are so many changes you can make to a front line service like so before it has a bigger impact.  

Different areas have very different needs where as something like the Iveco may work in the Highlands of Scotland (as they run similar Ford Transit type appliances already) but in an area of industrial risk and residential property you need full size WrT/WrL even if its just for ladders and water capacity.  

As I've stated before on the old site, someone will die one day with the attendance of small vehicle and its maybe only then that the powers be perk up and listen.

[Cardiff_Fire]

For those that are more in the know, what's the Command & Control? Is an Crew Manager on all of these with 1 or 2 firefighters?

[Noddy]

So, we had have BRV's in WMFS for years.  They are a Toyota Hi-Lux crewed with 3 and either a CM or WM rides up the front.  Ours carry BA, RTA gear, trauma and other stuff you'd see on a PRL, only smaller and reduced in number.

Now I have never been operational with these in service as I left the 'trucks' before they arrived.  I therefore only know how to resource and use PRL's so my experience is limited.  I do however see them regularly at jobs as I still turn out, albeit as an FI.

I agree that it cannot replace a PRL and nor should it.  They compliment our fleet and for the 99% of incidents they attend my view is that they are adequate.  I understand they will deal with a car fire but not much more.  This is why they are not solely sent to property fires, high rise jobs or motorway jobs (I think).  They do however pick up all the sh1te (bins, grass, AFA's, floodings etc...)

Now I accept that there will always be the time that one of these things turns up to a working job first , as happens in WMFS, and there is not a lot that can be done with 3 bods and a bit of water.  At the end of the day, its about saving the pennies and these certainly do that.

Do I agree with them? Not really.  I would like to see fire engines everywhere both as a serving firefighter and a member of the public but I understand that money has to be saved.  

[Bgjm21]

Noddy may I ask, do you believe these are here to stay? They seem like a soft target for further cuts, ie West Yorkshire getting rid of theres due to budget and I'm aware WMFS is facing further budget cuts so you do you see these as a permanent part of the fleet?

[Noddy]

I do yes.  WMFS is hugely committed to a 5 minute attendance time so reducing the fleet is off the agenda IMO. 

 

[Bgjm21]

Forgive me if I'm being naive but is there a reason for example that two BRV crews couldn't just be merged to staff a standard frontline pump? A 5 min attendance time doesn't mean much if it's got a crew of 3 arriving to wait for another 5 minutes for a standard pumping applianc