The Beginning of the End of DCP

[Luminoki]

Hereford and Worcester this week announced what the future of DCP means for them.

DCP

Ive no idea what the future holds for those trucks, my guess would be some kind of retained involvement. If it does go ahead it would mean that overnight there would be just 4 pumps available for immediate response covering a service of around 1500 sq miles

[Messyshaw]

Hats off the H&W FBU members

There is no place for DCP and its Victorian working hours in the 21st Century. That's not only my view, but that of the Courts

For an employer to ask employees to 'opt out' of legislation that applies to all other workers -  legislation aimed at protecting worker's welfare-  is an abuse of power.  What next? Asking staff to opt out of the confined space regs or working at height regs as the fire authority's budget won't stretch to the equipment & training required?  If the community want fire cover, they will have to pay for it and not expect firefighters to give up rights that everyone else enjoys.

I would like to see a fire authority's approach to an employer who attempts to opt out of fire safety legislation requirements!!!

I hope this work practice is destined for the history books along, with children being sent up chimneys and the destitute being pressed ganged into the Royal Navy

 

[Keith]

Don't like, but not surprised, by the tone of the press release, where management are blaming the union and firefighters. 😠

They should be working with the union to campaign for more funding from the authority to provide a proper fire service, which has been successful elsewhere.

[Noddy]

But the shifts they are abolishing were covered by volunteers??? If people want to work outside the directive because it suits their circumstances then why not?  I don’t follow? 

[Luminoki]

Ive never met anyone on this system that didnt want to be on it. In fact to get onto this shift pattern you had to sit a process such was its popularity. Im very pro union but now i fear that they will have done more damage by having to force the hand of senior officers who have no choice but to downgrade stations ( and bromsgrove was/is far too busy for the call number threshold to make it DCP )

And yes there should be more done to secure better funding from the government but it takes time that the accounts dont have

[Noddy]

I’ve read the article differently.  It appears to me that the FBU aren’t representing its members in line with their wishes.  If the shifts are voluntary and as luminoki says, people are striving to get onto it, then I’m unclear as to why the fbu in HWFRS have fought to have it thrown out? I didn’t read in the article that management were blaming firefighters?? 

[Messyshaw]

It is voluntary at present and individuals  can earn extra cash whilst the taxpayer saves cash as it's cheaper than whole time.

It looks like a win/win situation but I have two concerns;

1. Is a simple H&S and welfare one. The WTRs are there to protect workers wellbeing and rights. Opting out doesn't seem very forward thinking to me, in fact it seems a retrograde step.

2. Whilst it voluntary now, officially opt out and you may see a tsunami of DCP be introduced by cash strapped fire authorities. In time, the Govt will  want to know why station 99 is not DCP despite it not reaching a threshold of annual calls. Compulsory DCP postings would surely follow. That is not great news.

There's too much grab it while you can mentality. While some will love this extra hours and extra cash, it's worth looking at where it could go. IMHO, it could undo decades of improved conditions of service.

Am I the peddler of project fear, or just pragmatically cynical and forward facing? Only time will tell

 

[HoldFast]

I get it suits some people but I wouldn’t want to be on it. Not only having to live next door to the station and your whole life pretty much being confined to one area for days on end, but having previously worked RDS and wholetime simultaneously I now love being able to come home at the end of a shift and switch off. DCP sounds like it’s RDS and wholetime rolled into one but with more rigid hours. No thanks. Il stick with 2,2,4 any day (id go on 24’s but let’s not open that can of worms 😂)

I can see why people do it but I do hope as Messy has pointed out that it doesn’t pave the way for similar shift systems to be made compulsory further down the line. It’d completely change the role for me and definitely make it more of a ‘job’.

[Jet]

100% agree with you Messy. I do think the practice sets a dangerous precedent that will inevitably affect people who do not want to be on the system. Whilst it currently is (or was) the exception rather than the rule, it will only be a matter of time before an unscrupulous senior figure doesn’t see why every station can’t employ the system. 

Also worth noting that I personally know of someone who was compulsory transferred from an SDS to a day crewed station with just about a weeks notice!

[Noddy]

Where I completely agree is that it must not ever be compulsory but in its current guise I can’t see the issue.  

[Luminoki]

Ive been told of one FRS where people have put greivances in because they didnt pass a process for DCP. Secondly most fire services dont have the money to upgrade stations to this system, Alcester was around 400k to turn DCP. Lemington rent a house over the road ( or did last time i read ) Worcester have a bungalow built in the yard, as do Merseyside and Lancs. Sadly it seems easier to downgrade, cant think of any stations upgraded to DCP

History has shown that people are more likely to be forced onto self rostering as its easier to implement to WT stations, regardless of call volume. That with it brings its own set of issues but least the truck will be available 24/7. I cant speak for 24s as i dont know if it required upgrading station facilities

DCP was originally brought in based on call volume, i can see some FRS’s have taken the mick with their own thresholds. You get recovery time if youre out after midnight with DCP, rumour has it at one point Bromsgrove had nearly 2 days of positive hours where they were on recovery, by in large to the number of overnight AFAs to the local prison. Also they’re backed up by the following

Redditch WT - 6 miles away

Kidderminster WT - 10 miles away

Droitwich Day Crewed - 6 miles away

Northfield WT - 7 miles away, although its rare cos we dont like West Mids coming over to play

Playing devils advocate yes its firefighting on the cheap but i said on the old forum i’d rather see it than fire cover suffering. Now it seems that the worry is becoming more real. If i were living in Bromsgrove ( i dont, far to expensive for me ) i’d be worrying about a fire engine getting to me at night when i needed it .... then asking if the reduction in immediate fire cover means a reduction in council tax 😂

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Self rostering seems to be the future..224 costs more unfortunately. 

[Keith]

8 hours ago, Luminoki said:

i’d rather see it than fire cover suffering.

The problem with that though is are the employers taking advantage? No matter how committed we are, its not the responsibility of firefighters to maintain standards of fire cover, especially if it means worsening hard won conditions of service. The courts have deemed this duty system is illegal, so it shouldn't be, being worked. There should be no difference whether its imposed or if you opt in / volunteer.

From memory depending on which brigade / service has introduced it, there's a variation on the shift premium on offer, somewhere between 10 - 30%. Now consider what is being given up for this. As has been mentioned no stations have been upgraded to DCP, all have been downgrades from 2,2,4 so straight off that means a minimum of half the jobs have gone. Then if you consider what you're being paid, even at 30% that's well below the national minimum wage for all the additional hours worked.

I'm with @Messyshaw this Victorian work practice has no place in the 21st century.

[Jet]

Agreed. You can't keep a system in place just because it benefits a small minority of people. If I was still in London it would benefit me to go down and spunk all my hours in one go and then bugger up north to reduce my travelling. Well that doesn't benefit someone who lives near to the same station who wants to see their family once in a while. You have to look at the bigger picture and the implications it also has for future recruits into the service who will be liable to sign up to such draconian measures or risk losing their dream job.

[Noddy]

And the difference between this and the flexi-duty system is what exactly? 

[Jet]

@Noddy I’m not entirely sure how flexi works but I’m sure it doesn’t involve doing four consecutive 24s? Plus you’re normally free to roam around the entire brigade boundary as opposed to being confined to within a four minute journey of a fire station. 

[Luminoki]

Jamie ive never known anyone do the four 24s, if they did even i think they’d need their head testing. This case was brought by FBU who used South Yorks as an example, @CraigFX20 works this system and in a previous post he stated he does no more than 3 24s in one go. The FBU had us believe that it was a compulsory 96 hours straight so someones telling porkies there

@Keith I can only speak for H&W but when the system was brought in there was an increase of staff without posts. Then 30 ffs were seconded to other services and by the time they came back the service was desperately short that it was being run on voluntary additional shifts. And to a degree it still is. Also a FRS taking advantage of ffs is nothing new, just ask anyone who is retained these days and they’ll tell you that they’re bearing the brunt of whatever new scheme is in place. Retained already has enough problems before we go into appliance availability so theres no way of guaranteeing a crew 24/7 anymore

I wasnt a fan of this system when it was brought in as like many others i saw it reduced ff numbers.  However it came in, FRS’s spent probably millions upgrading facilities and now it seems like it was a total waste of money. So maybe the union bods shouldnt have let it grow arms and legs to a point where it may be their home areas which will soon be retained at night

[TandA]

To me it is the thin end of a very fat wedge.  It may start as voluntary, with sensible protections if you have a busy night and for a reasonable salary uplift in one or two brigades but with the usual race to the bottom, it will go through a few “improvements” and end up as compulsory, with no protection at all and for peanuts in other brigades within a year or two.   There are plenty of other, imho, madcap schemes out there that some CFOs would love to roll out.  If you go down the route of allowing them a foot in the door and a precedent for others to follow because someone somewhere likes it and is willing to give it a go then give it a few years and we will all be riding 3, doing all kinds of medical calls, Mtfa, missing persons, gritting roads, handing out home security and dietary advice and more and for no increased salary.

[Noddy]

11 hours ago, Jamiejet said:

@Noddy I’m not entirely sure how flexi works but I’m sure it doesn’t involve doing four consecutive 24s? Plus you’re normally free to roam around the entire brigade boundary as opposed to being confined to within a four minute journey of a fire station. 

Jaime I know a Duty weekend is at least 72 hours straight and I don’t see what difference it makes whether your are within 5 minutes of the station or in a county, if you’re on duty you are working... full stop. And flexi payment is 20% for the extra hours.... also well below the minimum wage.

Guys I do hear you all I sincerely do, just putting the other side across by way of healthy debate, that’s all. 

[Jet]

I don't mean to be pernickety, but on that basis RDS firefighters are 'on-duty' up to 120 hours a week for a part-time job. The difference with DCP and why it was made illegal vs other day crewing arrangements and Flexi hours is that when you are on call on those systems, you can enjoy the comfort of your own home. DCP required FF's to be in provided accommodation on or very near to the grounds of the station so were then deemed to actually be 'at work' as opposed to just on-call from home. Now this suits FF's who live well outside the boundary of their brigade area and don't wish to commute back and forth, but it's quite feasible that in the future a FF could find themselves forced to take a position at such a station (and by forced I also mean the 'so do you want this promotion or not' and similar tactics).

And you know I love a healthy debate Noddy 😅

[Noddy]

👍

I agree with the premise that it should be voluntary and not compulsory entirely.  I’m just trying to see it from the firefighters who make the informed choice to work it points of view.  

 

[Luminoki]

On that basis *puts tin hat on* when you sign your contract you agree to work anywhere in your fire service of choice. You have no right to spit your dummy out if your posting is one that isnt desirable for one reason or the other. 

I was lucky because i was placed onto a core shift as i wouldve hated going onto lates but i knew it was a risk ( i knew which station out of two i’d be posted to on my first day of training but thats another story )

[Keith]

Still not selling it folks. @TandA sums it up perfectly why voluntary doesn't work in the long term.

@Luminoki I suspect someone in H&W management knew exactly what they were doing. By downgrading the stations, they initially freed up 30 jobs that were "lent out", but guess what the establishment was now 30 lighter. Allowing for the normal natural wastage through retirement etc and no recruitment, by the time the 30 came back you were now short. Now if they recruit it will only be to fill the shortfall, there will be no chance to get back to the original level.

From all the new improved duty systems we've discussed on the forums, have any actually improved either our conditions or more importantly the service delivered to the public?

[Luminoki]

This was posted on social media this morning, H&W have started a consultation on the future of DCP. Options are either downgrade the DCP trucks to day duty and on call at night or re-instate them as 2/2/4. Theyve already said any changes will have to be implemented using funds allocated to DCP

The downgrade means that Bromsgrove, a fairly busy station, would have the day duty pump crewed at night by on call. Not ideal. I recently met with the FBUs regional secretary for another topic and made my feelings clear on how the FBU let DCP grow arms and legs and now it seems that fire cover could suffer due to their actions ( as im sure alot of other DCP heavy services will be watching H&W now )

[Keith]

13 hours ago, Luminoki said:

the FBU let DCP grow arms and legs and now it seems that fire cover could suffer due to their actions

Luminoki, can't see how you come to this conclusion, the FBU have been opposed to DCP from the start, campaigning against it and then taking the court case. Whilst I've no detailed knowledge of these particular cases, I would suspect they will have opposed the downgrading from 2,2,4 to DCP and will want it re-instated.