West Sussex Fire and Rescue - Shifts

[MHaldron]

Anyone know what shift patterns WSFRS use at all??

[Harve88]

I believe it’s 2 days, 2 nights, 6 off (leave is factored into the 6 off) with a handful of payback days that must be given back and worked throughout the year 

[Messyshaw]

@Harve88 Do what?

Repeat all after "I believe"....

I don't understand that at all!

[TrainHardFightEasy]

I think what he means is you do 2-2-6 but can be called in when the service is short of numbers. So as much as 6 off sounds great in reality being called upon for resilience whenever the service requires me is the downside. 

[Harve88]

Sorry - basically what @TrainHardFightEasy said above 

From what i understand they don’t get leave to take when they want because all of their leave days are spread out over the year which is what gives them the 6 off

So if they want to take more than 6 off this can only be done via exchange of duties with people on other watches

[TrainHardFightEasy]

That really does not sound very appealing. 

[Keith]

Something still doesn't sound right about this. I get the allocating leave bit to some extent, but in practice how many watches do you need, what is the working pattern and do you only get days off? For example do you start the first set and work the 2 days & 2 nights, have 4 rotary off and then are allocated the 2 days off for the next set and work the 2 nights and then repeat?

[Jet]

The person who came up with that system doesn’t even understand it!

”What’s, that? There’s something that isn’t broke and doesn’t need fixing?? Sounds like a promotion opportunity for this guy!!” 

High five’s all around. 

[Keith]

Speaking of fives, I think that this duty system is actually the latest variation of the five watch system. 

From my earlier post, you can see that it really confused me, that much I actually went on to the West Sussex website to see if it gave any detail and instantly regretted it after reading this bit of management speak describing the WT duty systems:

Quote

As a West Sussex wholetime community firefighter you will be working a 42-hour week across one of the following duty systems:

• shift group crewing (12-hour shifts): 2-2-6 shift pattern (2 day shifts, 2 night shifts, 6 days off)
• day crewing and crewing optimisation group (7-day fortnight) Monday-Friday.

Shift group crewing or crewing optimisation group anyone.

Still couldn't figure it out, then it struck me 2+2=10 divide by 2 and you've got 5! Does tie in with the other clues, all leave allocated, pay back days, resilience etc. Think I'll leave it to some of our GMFRS colleagues to explain how successful that system was.

[Carl]

I think the fact we went to five watches in 2006 and 5 years later went back to four explains how successful it was 😯

[TandA]

What exactly is wrong with 2,2,4?  If it isn’t broke, don’t be the one to break it.

[Keith]

Now stop that TandA, you're not embracing change.😂

[Jet]

But without change, how is anyone going to advance their career? I can’t possibly go to an interview and tell them that when I took over everything worked absolutely brilliantly so I didn’t change a thing...

[Percy]

On 29/01/2019 at 16:55, Jamiejet said:

The person who came up with that system doesn’t even understand it!

”What’s, that? There’s something that isn’t broke and doesn’t need fixing?? Sounds like a promotion opportunity for this guy!!” 

High five’s all around. 

You must know something I don’t Jamie.

In terms of ‘being broken’, if you mean the 2-2-4 9/15 that was introduced before the Thatcher era of Government had even started, and doesn’t conform to the legislation of today such as the Working Time Regulations or HSG 256 then an opportunity to change it to a model that does at the time of other massive ‘forced’ change due to budget cuts, the individual tasked with designing a new patterns had a set brief. What he came up with was very good, in-house, no need for public money being spent on expensive ‘consultants’.

He designed a system that many didn’t want to see introduced but as with Manchester’s 5 watch system, once in many dont want it to revert back to 4 Watches now the freeze on recruitment is lifted and as with other FRS there’s new people. 

That said for me, as a 5 Watch model it isn’t as good as the one Manchester had. Largely this is because technically you cannot show, without mutual swaps, where you could have a minimum of a 7 day holiday, a right of its own.

On 30/01/2019 at 23:00, Jamiejet said:

But without change, how is anyone going to advance their career? I can’t possibly go to an interview and tell them that when I took over everything worked absolutely brilliantly so I didn’t change a thing...

I hope you don’t think that everyone that has ever had to design alternative crewing options due to centrally and locally imposed budget constraints did it for the sole purpose of career advancement? 😜

[Dyson]

If we accept that we have to work a finite number of hours per week (average over a set period) and we accept there needs to be a minimum finite number of firefighters on duty at all times, and we accept those firefighters are entitled to annual leave and will be occasionally sick, will occasionally have babies, will need time of occasionally at no notice and need to attend training courses. Then its really not rocket science to understand that all of these unsuccessful variations introduced over the last 10 years or so have just been cash cows for consulting companies and evidence gathering opportunities for highly ambitious internal people .....

2/2/4 or 24's are truly the best variants I know of that are appropriate at urban fire stations which require a W/T establishment. (Herts do a popular self rostering thing at very quiet stations I believe)

[MHaldron]

Well we are now being told we are to move to a shift duty system. Essentially 2 watches of 22 on our station. We are to work 10hr days and 14hr nights, work more days than nights on a self rostering basis. However the system isn’t acknowledging that the night is 4 hours longer than the days so we will work 26.8 days more than a day crewed station.. also only 4 to be on shift at night per truck, so if anyone calls in sick there is no resilience and as such that truck will be taken off the run and the remaining firefighters then sent around the county to cover any other shortfall if required....

Actually I’m going to start this on a new thread.....