BA Compartment Searching

[OscarTango]

Out of interest, how many brigades are using this as well as directional, or as the only search method?

We've been using it in Kent since 2015 but operationally the default is almost always directional. Surrey compartment searching is the standard.

It seems there is some variation around the country?

[TandA]

Essex default to compartment searching.  It has been taught here for years and has now been the default for probably the last 5 or so.  It is more efficient once you get used to it. 

[Dyson]

Thats more a matter of opinion TandA than a statement of fact, if you don't mind me saying so.....there are many factors to consider. 

[Messyshaw]

For the benefit of those of us still happily using inches, pints and shillings, what is the definition of compartment searching?

Is it something new or a new phrase for something that's been done for years?

[TandA]

14 hours ago, Dyson said:

Thats more a matter of opinion TandA than a statement of fact, if you don't mind me saying so.....there are many factors to consider. 

Agreed.  Everything I say is just my opinion.  Of course there are a number of occasions and scenarios where I would go with directional searching but in my opinion compartment searching often leads to second and subsequent teams less going over areas already covered and enables a better picture of what has and hasn’t been cleared to be fed back to the BAECO.

52 minutes ago, Messyshaw said:

For the benefit of those of us still happily using inches, pints and shillings, what is the definition of compartment searching?

Is it something new or a new phrase for something that's been done for years?

Probably a bit of both.  Keeping it easy to follow, Imagine a single storey building, one entrance into a large rectangular hallway / room (compartment 1) with three further doors off of it one on each of the remaining 3 sides (compartments 2, 3 and 4).  

Directional search - left hand - stick left hand on wall and follow it, going through doors and into new compartments as you find them.  

Compartment search - left hand compartment search - enter compartment 1, search noting and vicinity searching doors to compartments 2, 3 and 4 as you find them but staying in compartment 1 until you have cleared it.  Only then do you go to first door you found and move to that compartment and do the same here and so on.  

[Carl]

Compartment searching is all we have ever done in GMFRS for as long as I can remember. However, due to new BA Guidelines, we are now being taught Directional as well.

[HoldFast]

Only ever done directional searching but I do like the sound of compartment searching. I do find it amazing how many procedural differences there are up and down the country. 

[OscarTango]

Both have strengths. Depending on the visibility and location of casualties you can come across them quicker with a compartment searching when you do a meter sweep of each doorway before you enter the next compartment.

That said there is also greater potential for disorientation when the visibility is very low and you have penetrated deep into a building, having to keep track of both what compartment you are in and what door you came through.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

If visibility is poor & PPV isn’t an option then I prefer directional searching despite it taking longer & being less efficient.

[Messyshaw]

I bet someone at the College or deep within the Home Office got some promotion and kudos for introducing this re wording exercise!  There doesn't seem to be any scope in that duo definition for when you are in possession of a building plan and are able to brief crews as to there specific route

Oh well, I don't want to look like the resident site old fart, but is does look a bit like reinventing the wheel - Not quite as much as the term 'dynamic risk assessments' - a process I learned about aged 40, despite doing it naturally since I was crawling!!!  

[Mitch]

In Dorset we default to directional and Wiltshire will default to compartmental (old service isms), however both are being taught. 

[TandA]

On 14/10/2018 at 21:13, Messyshaw said:

There doesn't seem to be any scope in that duo definition for when you are in possession of a building plan and are able to brief crews as to there specific route.

Of course, in both scenarios, IF I have a set of plans to work from then I would use them and brief crews accordingly.  Neither compartment or directional searching would prevent that or hinder it.  

Both directional and compartment searching explanations I gave were assuming I was searching a building of unknown layout at the time of the search.  

[Percy]

Talk about over complicating for over complicating sake!

How about before you progress and search the next compartment, you clear the one you’re in? Room by Room, Area by Area and Floor by Floor. 

Take away the Firegear, if you lost your wallet or keys in your house, how would you look for them? Exactly.

Directional ‘searching’ (I actually don’t like to call it that) has the potential to miss people and fires, fact.

Did DS have a factor in the deaths at Shirley Towers? If they had been doing compartment they would have found the fire not gone past it and then up the stairs.

 That’s good enough for me.

[Cashybai]

From my head, the biggest issue with directional searching for me as an OiC, is determining how much has been searched, and future crew requirements. I mean, which report would you like to hear, " we've cleared the first room, gone through the door in wall 1 into the second room, cleared that, there's one more door on wall three of room 1 we've not gone through"  or " we cleared wall 1, took a door into the next compartment, found a door on wall 2, went through that, found another door on wall 1 of that compartment, went through that...'How big is each room and how much is unsearched?' ...No idea..' what about any hazards in those rooms?'...No Idea"

Directional is fine to get you to a specific point of interest if you've got plans to hand, I can't see the logic of disappearing off miles & miles into numerous rooms if you're not sweeping them as you go through, both for hazards and life risk.

[Geeooo]

Compartment Clearance is the method in use in Scotland. 

[TandA]

On 02/11/2018 at 09:34, Percy said:

Talk about over complicating for over complicating sake!

Trust a northerner to get right to the crux of it! ?

[HoldFast]

1 hour ago, PuddleSplasher said:

Ye olde, Smoke Eaters had that same room searched and covered with a full room search in a fraction of the time that modern firefighters can do.

What was it that made it so much quicker?

[Jet]

Couple of shifts ago we were talking about search patterns. I’m in a brigade that has always done compartmental and new BA guidance is saying we now do directional as well, leaving many perplexed and skeptical.

As someone who’s done both and sees the many advantages in both, I encouraged them to search the first floor of our fire station using directional search pattern with a two person crew (just walking through, not an actual drill) and make a mental note of areas that were not covered by the search. Only the middle of one room wasn’t covered by the search (the old dorm so it’s a big room). Bearing in mind it is a commmercial type building and has much bigger floor space than the average home, it made them realise that in almost all domestic properties directional is more than adequate to perform a full search and in quick time without as pointed out, literally going around in circles. 

I don’t for one minute think directional is a one size fits all method. It is not comprehensive and even potentially dangerous in large buildings with complicated layouts. But for me, directional is a brilliant search method that is quick and effective in a great deal of situations we get called to. 

[Percy]

Jamie, although an ‘unconventional’ layout for a flat, Shirley Towers was a flat all the same with a small area footprint, and in comparison to other buildings needing a search method one that should have been as routine as they come. 

It is my honest opinion that directional searching contributed to their deaths. Had they used compartmental then they would have found the fire (near to the bottom corner of the picture) very early, not gone past it and ultimately above it.

[Jet]

Percy, that specific example raises the serious question of when/if do you ascend stairs with an active fire that’s not in the process of being controlled. You can (and do) ascend stairs in compartment searching by sweeping the stairs and landing then coming back down. You also have loads of cases where specific information leads a crew to go immediately upstairs above an uncontrolled fire (Blaina). Whilst I don’t wish to comment on the ‘what-ifs’ of Shirley Towers without knowing all the facts (despite having seen the case study and spoken to someone on the job), I think that a directional search pattern has great potential to an even earlier discovery of the seat of fire than compartmental. There’s also the awkward question of resources but that’s for another topic. 

[Percy]

Hi Jamie, I’m also fully conversant with the Shirley Towers report which re-emphasises to me that it’s a flawed procedure. It is simply not thorough enough to say it’s a ‘search’ technique.

Had they employed RxR.AxA.FxF the first BA team would have discovered the fire.

[OscarTango]

I do agree but I feel this is a practical limitation to be considered, not enough to consign the whole search procedure to the fires of hell. Directional is put to use up and down the country effectivley every week somewhere.  I think we should have every tool in the box. If conducting a 72.d or IPS/OPS visit to a premises like Shirley towers maybe what procedure to use should form part of the tactical plan. 

As as slight tangent it seems there is some different interpretations of compartment searching. We're starting a joint recuits course in Surrey at the moment along with East and West Sussex. 

I gather that if confronted with an open door, Sussex are taught to treat that as the same compartment and proceed through, not meter sweep it and finish the current compartment like we would in Surrey. Room by room, area by area floor by floor sure, but how do different services demark compartments?

[Dyson]

Over the years I've used and taught both techniques, as a BAI in service and at FSC. I realised pretty early on that those who prefer either technique are normally fairly confident that's the best one, and aren't normally wiling to consider moving from that position....thats a nationwide issue. The sensible Brigade I guess will be the one which allows both techniques  to be used, depending on the premises and task...

May I just say (with respect and love) that I think the Shirley Towers comments above are slightly off, and a bit speculative if I say so...

But I will tell you something I've learned while teaching, fact rather than an opinion...

When teaching recruits, and while conducting refreshers with experienced Firefighters, of the two, the compartment clearance method is the one they all have most difficulty with. This method does increase the risk of a firefighter becoming disoriented and lost in arduous conditions. This was clear to see the training and assessment environment. 

[Cashybai]

TBH I'm very much of a tools for the job. In a one room flat, small house or indeed an open plan layout the two disciplines are to all intents and purposes identical, you stay on the wall you're directed, and come out with the opposite hand on the wall. The problem is when you introduce multi linked compartments, with an undetermined fire location, that's where the issues arise. For anyone who plays PUBG,FORTNITE or similar, it's almost like coming into a room through the door, heading for the window on the other side & getting slotted by the camper in the corner, because you've not cleared the room. Look, I'm a guideline advocate, and that's a directional search to the nth degree, with a follow on compartment search going on behind. I see no problems with directional IF you've got efficient comms going on and the ECO/IC have therefore a clear view of whats going on and whats in need of a crew to search behind. Puddle did raise a valid point, of chucking one crew in on left, one on right: problem is there's plenty of places where it's doubtful that the crews would ever meet up, likewise there's also plenty of places where they'd cover the same ground and not realise.