Graded Response

[Dan J]

We’ve not long gone live with a new graded response policy. 

This basically means we now risk assess each incident and decide which category of response it gets in order to balance public and crew safety when travelling on blues against the risk posed by the incident. 

There are 3 categories:-

• Emergency
• Prompt
• Non emergency.

Emergency response we travel on lights and sirens as normal.

Prompt means that we can use lights and sirens to make progress and when necessary. However once lights are no longer necessary they are turned off and return to no exemptions. 

Non emergency as you would expect is travelling without blues and with no exemptions. 

Reaponse categories are assigned by control following national guidance and then can be upgraded by control if deemed necessary. 

The OIC of the pump can also upgrade if necessary and can downgrade once info becomes available at scene for oncoming appliances.  This means the first pump could go on blues then arrive and find no sign of fire so knock it down to non emergency response for oncoming pumps. 

Driver remains responsible for their driving however the OIC is responsible for telling the driver when they can use blues to make progress and when to knock the blues off.

I attended my first prompt the other day to a lift rescue, where we didn’t use blues or sirens at all. 

Is anyone else doing this?

[Crog]

This has confused me for a while now.

We have immediate and non-immediate. Bar obvious incidents, doesn’t really seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what response is decided. I’ve been on identical lift rescues, same info, etc, one being immediate and one not.

The other part that bugs me about driving is the policies and things like you mention of the oic deciding when to go blues or not. It may be policy, but is not anyone’s decision other than the driver. It is the drivers license at risk, no one else’s.

Response category should be the drivers decision based on info given. Yes the oic can have input, etc, but it is the drivers decision alone. Having been a response driver for the police, control categorised the response, but we chose how to actually respond and would ensure the log was annotated as such.

[Carl]

GMFRS had a drive to arrive policy very similar to this a few years back. It ran for a couple of years but was dropped after a while and now back to normal.

[Percy]

Seems like a confusing and an unnecessary policy to me. 

Whats wrong with Emergency and Non Emergency?

Prompt? With subjective scenarios when lights and sirens (and therefore legal exemptions) can be used or can’t sounds like and invitation for trouble and probably been nowhere near a legal dept for their advice.

[Luminoki]

Im yet to go to a job on prompt response Dan but the feelings over my way is that its not popular. Especially as a few years ago we trialled road speed for afas. Can also see a flurry of complaints when we’re seen to be taking the mick going through red lights on blues and then turning them off

Its concerning as we have a fair few afas and i have experience in them turning into something juicy. And the recently retired Bobby M always liked to say Tescos was an afa

[Cashybai]

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:15, Crog said:

The other part that bugs me about driving is the policies and things like you mention of the oic deciding when to go blues or not. It may be policy, but is not anyone’s decision other than the driver. It is the drivers license at risk, no one else’s.

 

Hmm, difficult one there Crog, I see what you're saying re the driver having control of the two's, but the level of response (ie blues or not) will surely be down to the OiC & Control? This three tier response as others have said sounds like a potential legal nightmare to me, it's either an emergency or not, not some cobble of both..

[Jet]

I don’t think blues should be switched on and off en route, it’s a nightmare when you’re returned/stood down from an incident en route and you turn off blues and every road user ahead seems utterly purplexed. I can’t imagine doing that multiple times on one shout. 

Apart from that the prompt thing does kind of make sense, but only in certain and very limited circumstances. I believe LFB’s fire investigation units respond on lights and sirens but cannot go over road speed limit. The same should be for all appliances attending in a support role such as command units, operational support units etc. I don’t however think any first attending appliances should respond at road speed for any incident. And if it’s not an emergency call well it begs the question why we are even going?

[Crog]

1 hour ago, Cashybai said:

Hmm, difficult one there Crog, I see what you're saying re the driver having control of the two's, but the level of response (ie blues or not) will surely be down to the OiC & Control? This three tier response as others have said sounds like a potential legal nightmare to me, it's either an emergency or not, not some cobble of both..

When I had my response driving in the police, we were told that the call may well be graded a certain way, but it is you who decides how to respond.  As such, I’ve previously responded to immediate calls at road speed and standard calls on blues.

If something goes wrong, control and the oic won’t be stood on the defendants side of the court room. It’s right they can have input, but still should be solely drivers choice.

[HoldFast]

@Crog as a copper is it down to you to have the final say as it’s you and a partner rather than you and and an OIC of a whole crew? Not being funny, genuine question.

[Noddy]

7 hours ago, Jamiejet said:

I believe LFB’s fire investigation units respond on lights and sirens but cannot go over road speed limit.

I respond on blues too but we have the same dispensation that first responders have.  Having said that, I do tend to abide by what you said above.  For us it’s not life and death that we get there so I use the lights to purely get me through traffic and on motorways I often don’t even bother. 

[Crog]

2 hours ago, HoldFast said:

@Crog as a copper is it down to you to have the final say as it’s you and a partner rather than you and and an OIC of a whole crew? Not being funny, genuine question.

Completely down to you. As stated, if it goes wrong, you’re the one that could potentionally end up going to prison.

[HoldFast]

Appreciate what you’re saying but I wouldn’t argue with my OIC about which response category we were running with. As a driver I don’t feel that is my call. It is however up to me how I drive. Sirens or no sirens, as long as I drive to the road and weather conditions and ‘drive to arrive’ as they say, I will go with whichever response I am told. 

[Matt]

Should be no middle about it, either emergency or none emergency simple as it they want to introduce and go that way about it. 

Animal stuck up tree and has been for several days doesn't warrant a blue light response and is more of a risk for nothing as such where as call from ambulance to gain entry to get to patient, person in lift unwell, RTC, fire would be an emergency.  Where it gets into the the area that is grey is your AFA type calls where it could catch you out, but unless your in a particularly busy town/city is it going to make much difference if you went at normal road speed? 

I have spoken to friends in the job about this in the past, I think blue lights are often used more than needed, end of the day its the drivers responsibility and who is going to look out for drivers who hits a car at a junction because they haven't been paying attention and your going to an animal stuck in a tree, where does driver stand? 

Look at other blue light responders, they don't always respond to all jobs on the bell particularly the Police, ambulance maybe a little more is the call has been outstanding a while.  

@Dan J has there been anything that has prompted this i.e. more bumps on blue light runs that may have triggered this?

[BurtMacklin]

From my point of view, the tip sheet is what gives me the legal authorisation to use blue lights. It’s then up to me to decides how best to use them. If it clearly states non emergency then it’s road speed. It’s the drivers ability to risk assess the conditions and seriousness of the call based upon all the information available and apply that to the manner in which they drive. If a service has got people who can only drive flat out, even when going to fuel on roadway person locked out danger of fire type calls then they either need more training or taking off driving duties. 

[HoldFast]

AFA calls aren’t a grey area in my opinion Matt. You don’t know what you’ve got until you get there.

[Cashybai]

Crog, I think you're missing the point tbh. Whether you're on blues or not, I 100% agree it's the driver who's ultimately responsible and will be standing there in the dock if it goes wrong. However it's also down to the driver to drive to the conditions & circumstances. And that's the point. Plenty of times as a driver where the conditions didn't suit, I've proceeded with considerable restraint on blues because imho it just wasn't safe to go any faster, regardless of the incident. I think that's what you're trying to say, in a roundabout way. However I still don't think it should be down to the driver to decide whether its an emergency or non emergency call, that's for con ops and or the OiC on information coming back to decide. It's then down to the driver to get them there safely e.g. drive to arrive. Whether on blues or not shouldn't make any difference to that mantra.  

[Crog]

Pretty much, but having gone through/seen the court process more times than I can remember, they will use everything they can to get you. 

No doubt the call needs grading, but the driver should not be made to on blues against their wishes and that should be respected, if the information warrants such a response.

[HoldFast]

Looks like it’s agree to disagree ?

[Messyshaw]

On 30/08/2018 at 08:47, HoldFast said:

AFA calls aren’t a grey area in my opinion Matt. You don’t know what you’ve got until you get there.

Mmmm. Regardless of the handful of shouts where there is a fire, I am afraid I do not accept that an AFA shout is the same as a fire call, and as such, the default should be no attendance. On certain risks, it may be valid to send a crew on a risk based basis, but not on blues and twos - indeed, that crew should be on the run and available for other calls during this incident.

I know I will be shot down in flames here, but let me explain my rationale:..........

Ask yourself, why do buildings have fire detection systems? For the vast majority of occasions , they are 'Category L systems', designed to raise the alarm and alert those at risk of the presence of fire. In most cases, persons will make their way to a place of safety.

OK, some buildings have phased evacuations which may delay an escape, others use progressive horizontal  evacuation systems where people may stay in the building as the fire is dealt with. Some fire detections systems trigger auxiliary actions such as grounding lifts, isolating gas supplies in kitchens and so on, but the primary reason for a Cat L system is to raise the alarm to allow escape or movement to a place of safety.

We all know the truth that the overwhelming majority of 'AFA' shouts are good intent false alarms. Where they are fires, most are dealt with without fire service intervention and where the fire service get involved, only a tiny amount need more than one hosereel to deal with the fire. Its also fair to say, that where the fire service are required, it is (or would have been possible) fro the responsible person to make a 999 call confirming a fire.

It is the law that buildings must be designed and operated so that where an evacuation is required, it is done so without fire service involvement. So why would the Responsible person need to call 999 immediately a fire alarm actuates? It is down to the RP to have their own system in place to check and confirm fire, and I believe many Res are taking the Mickey when passing the responsibility to checking why an alarm has operated to the fire service.

I did 32 years in the fire service - 22 years of it operational and the remainder in fire safety. I have been applying fire safety as a consultant for 15 years so I have some competence (am not a complete lunatic!!) I must admit that i am somewhat influenced by the fact a friend died in a RTC when his appliance overturned on the way to a routine AFA. I am pleased most F&RS have reduced their PDAs, but more can be done to bring a bit more common sense to AFA shouts.

Going to them off the bell, but on the run may be a way forward - or only attending high risk stuff or where evacuations can be problematic - such as elderly care homes and mental health units 

If you think I am talking nonsense, challenge me. But don't use that tired old 'We only come back from false alarms' rhetoric - because as my friend demonstrated, and as his kids will testify, not all of us come back from false alarms.

[HoldFast]

I think you’re talking nonsense... haha joking. Nah I completely appreciate what you’re saying @Messyshaw and you obviously have a broader view of the subject than I do in my limited time on the job. I’ve had a couple of calls that have influenced my opinion but I do think it is a difficult area. I do maintain that AFAs themselves aren’t a grey area but maybe it’s the potential premises involved that falls under a grey area? If that makes sense.

Condolences for your friend. Very sorry to hear that.

[Dan J]

Crog, the driving is left up to the driver. All the oic is doing is saying you can now have full exemptions. Eg, if there’s a big traffic jam ahead or a set of traffic lights on red or a slow moving tractor or something like that. It’s up to the driver what he or she does with those exemptions.

As a non-driving JO, I’m being very careful to let the drivers get on with driving, But I do have to make the decision when I want the driver to make progress and when the obstruction ahead has gone. 

Matt, no this hasn’t come in as a result of bumps, it is down to a  couple of things, one being to reduce the risk to crews and the public with pumps driving round on blues (by risk assessing against the risk of arriving later to an incident), and actually being able to justify the use of blue lights and legal exemptions in the first place, as each incident is individually assessed. 

There is national guidance somewhere on incident types and what the usual category is for that incident. This is then checked against the circumstances where it will either be classed as in the document, or upgraded if deemed to be a higher risk than normal. 

A couple of examples for upgrading a call could be if the nearest station is unavailable so another pump has excessive travel time to get to an incident, or you have local knowledge of a high risk occupant etc. 

A reason to downgrade would be once you arrive at an incident, no sign of fire, so downgrade the incident to non-emergency or prompt, so reduce the risk for oncoming pumps.