Retained to Wholetime

[HoldFast]

@Lummox some of what you’ve said is spot on. But I can’t agree with the knowledge gap and training comments about RDS. My RDS training course was split into sections yes, but it actually totalled more weeks than some of my wholetime counterparts who have done shorter courses. I also had plenty of time practicing drills and doing assessments over the course of my training, and my development, which at the end of I was awarded the same qualification as a wholetime firefighter.

When I went from retained to wholetime I went through the full process with another service and just happened to wind up on a conversion course following my medical rather than the full recruits course. If I’d had my way I would have done the full course because I’d looked forward to it for a long time and I enjoy the training/camaraderie, and I have always wanted and will always want to learn as much as possible.

For a while when I got on station I felt like I had been cheated out of the experience and that I wasn’t prepared enough to be on a wholetime watch. This wasn’t a nice feeling and it was made worse by people who thought I wasn’t ‘qualified’. But why wasn’t I? I’d spent 7 years riding fire engines and attending incidents and doing drills. After 2 years wholetime I’ve gained a lot of perspective. I attend less incidents and do less training now than I did when I was RDS. Yet I’m now seen as a ‘proper’ firefighter. It’s bollocks mate.

Don’t get me wrong. I went into my new wholetime role in my new service like I was new into the job and willing to learn and take on all the jobs and everything that came my way and more. And I still go to work with this attitude today, and I always will. I don’t think I know everything or a lot and I know I still have so much to learn and will never stop learning throughout my whole career. I do my best to learn whatever I can whenever I can. But there are plenty of RDS firefighters who could competently move straight over to wholetime with no issues whatsoever, as opposed to a knowledge gap causing them problems (I am not talking about those with a couple of years in thinking they know it all, they drive me up the wall too). It depends wholly on the individual and where they are lucky or unlucky enough to be stationed.

Like you say some RDS firefighters are complete idiots, but so are some wholetime.

And @Copey25 absolutely stay humble. I would never want to be anything else. 

 

[Lummox]

@HoldFast obviously my comments are on my experiences in my brigade, if there’s one thing for certain every service seems to approach this differently. In my service I’d be very surprised to discover a whole time station doing less than 3 hours training a week. In fact I’d be horrified. 

Your point about there being excellent rds firefighters stands, there are many I’d stand next to happily. But there is a huge gulf in my experience between those guys and girls and some entitled sorts who have skipped any decent selection and training process whose unsuitability is only exposed when they go on the run and start claiming all sorts of reasons for underperforming. Sadly the service hasn’t the back bone to correct this and we’re left with people drifting around the service till they find a cosy spot. That last sentence also applies to useless Wt recruits too, the new PQA process has recruited some ‘interesting’ personalities. 

[HoldFast]

All fair comments mate.

[Jet]

Ok from someone who has never been retained here is my take on it;

I've no doubt that there are very competent and experienced RDS FF's, some that could run rings around a lot of WT. I certainly don't think it's necessary for such a person to have to undergo an entire recruits course IF the service they have been successful with are running conversion courses. However, I believe that whether they join their own or another service, it is only fair that everyone completes the WT selection procedure with no exceptions. I am of this opinion because I do not believe it is fair to aspiring FF's who do not happen to live near a retained fire station. They are effectively being passed up for a chance at a job for someone who holds a role that they attained solely because of where they live (lets be honest) . I do not think that being RDS should guarantee you or hold you in higher regard for any WT job, inter-service or not and I think any RDS FF worth their salt would fly through the selection. Whichever way you look at it, 'back-door entry' is not looked upon favourably by most WT FF's.

I know many on here won't like that opinion and I am in no way trying to undermine the dedication and professionalism of RDS FF's. I hope you see it this way.

[TandA]

JamieJet

I don’t have any problem with the spirit of that.  

My guess is, like all jobs and all duty systems, you get good and bad in the RDS. There are undoubtedly some extremely good RDS firefighters and officers out there that not only can and do hold their own in comparisons with a lot of WT firefighters but that for some reason were never assessed as suitable for a WT position by their own brigades despite submitting numerous applications over a number of years.  Many though eventually applied to neighbouring brigades, only to be snapped up.  There are also some RDS firefighters who despite a lot of training, are still not up to the job.  The worst, in my book, are the ones who believe that they have a right to a WT post as being RDS makes them automatically a better candidate.  That simply isn’t true and shows all the wrong attitudes and attributes. 

I have never wanted to apply for WT (finding the RDS and fire service too late in my career to want to start again).  If I had though, I would jump through whatever hoops were put in my way, after all that is what everyone else has to do to earn a job.  I would also be silently wondering at the sense or otherwise of making me do 2 weeks BA Initial when I have passed 18 years worth of BA Verifications and all my BA courses, teaching me to run out hose when I have over the last two decades run out more lengths than some of the instructors, making me undertake fitness tests when I have an up to date service fitness assessment, and so on with ICS and more.  Surely better to do a skills assessment and conversion course and spend the time and money actually improving my skills where necessary rather than repeating basic stuff I have repeatedly proved I am competent in for the last two decades?

[Jet]

100% with you there @TandA. I don't for one minute think that an experienced RDS FF should have to complete a recruits course regardless of the circumstances. The only time that should happen is simply if there is no accommodation for a bespoke conversion course for RDS to WT in that service, at that time. My belief is simply that anyone who wants a WT job needs to pass through WT selection. I don't think it can be more fair than that.

By the way you mention having to do two week initial BA with experience. I had to do two weeks of BA on my WT to WT conversion course! 😨😵

[Znra251]

Two totally separate issues - training and recruitment

Training is a tougher one to address. Some retained guys and girls are very good some are shocking although the same can be said for wholetime. The RDS training does miss out the 13 weeks together residentially (in part) that whole time does but IN THEORY it should be to the same standard as to pass each element should be to the same standard. Was it once? Probably. Is it now? Not in my brigade. We are so desperate for bums on seats that unless an RDS recruit is dangerously bad they won't be failed and even then sometimes the pressures from above mean the are still on the run. 

RDS training does need looking at because in the increasingly modern world there must be a better way of doing it. RDS at stand alone stations need to drill together but at stations where RDS and WT both work and sometimes inter-crew (is that a word?) then this training should be a lot more integrated. RDS should be required to attend x number of drill nights with more emphasis on them working with the WT crews building relationships, experience etc and not just working in a bubble. Also my brigade only offers most of the training to RDS not all of it so if we have RDS guys and girls working with us on overtime/banks shifts/cover etc we have to down grade appliances due to the training gap. For true interchangeable roles this would have to be addressed too

Recruitment is the harder issue. Even if RDS competent and WT competent are identical standards which they should be recruitment isn't just done on the basis of who would be competent. RDS is a lot less completive to get into, that is simply a fact of life caused by the 5 minute geographical limit to the area you can live in. So you could be a competent RDS fire fighter and not one of the top 10-15 candidates out of the hundreds who apply. It sucks but is just the case. Does it highlight a flaw with recruitment and how they judge candidates?

And any retained who join and don't want to do the full 13 week course all I can say is you're idiots! It's the best 13 weeks of your life. If you can keep your head down and go under the radar you will love the course!