Retained to Wholetime

[JD152710]

Had an interesting debate on station today on whether firefighters on the RDS should go through the same process as everyone one else when applying for WDS either in their own brigade or another; or should they go straight through to a further stage in the application process. 

[OscarTango]

Its an immensely sought after job. Personally I think if you are in the job already and really want to go wholetime, you should not have too much issue sucking it up and applying with everyone else. Especially as you already have an insight into the process that others may not. 

However, once you are successful, I do wonder how cost effective it is to put a competent firefighter through a whole recruits course. Do a training needs and analysis and a bridging course instead. 

I'm sure opinions will differ.

[Luminoki]

In H&W we’ve just undertaken a recruits intake, 6 off the street and 6 RDS to WT, one of which is a very good friend of mine ( ironically he was the only RDS that was already WT in another service )

They joined the course towards the end and did a week of scenario drills along with two weeks of “ corporate strategy” As part of their entry assesment they did a day at TDC doing drills similar to the 9 month assesment day all RDS have to undertake. RDS and WT transferring from other services ( there was a pot for that one ) went through the same process, but as i said above, the RDS to WT are all H&W ?

Sadly ( tin hat at the ready ) i think SOME RDS are their own worst enemy when it comes to applying for WT, ive met some with an enormous sense of self entitlement who think they should walk into a WT job, approaching a recruitment process with an “it’ll be alright on the night” attitude. Those are the ones who have been offered interview help and turned it down, ive heard the “a firefighter is a firefighter is a firefighter argument” but when its met with the brutally honest “if you didnt get in, you didnt meet the standard” reply, the conversation quickly becomes rather sour

[OscarTango]

I wanted to say that last paragraph myself but bit my tounge .  I know of many retained who would go absolutely miles wholetime and get overlooked, yet crack on and apply themselves and eventually get in.

 Others as you say completely wing it assuming they already have an edge for being retained and do absolutely nothing to cultivate themselves. Then it's everyone else's fault but theirs when they fail. 

That conversion course you described sounds very sensible. I do think the fire service is one of the few jobs where previous actual experience of doing it sometimes doesn't help you at all. Good to see some practical thinking being applied.

[Matt]

I don't think that a competent RDS firefighter who is up to date on everything needs to do the full course as they are doing the same job except some specialist roles which they can be trained for.  Why spend all that money when an assessment of what they do and don't know can be done and focus on them areas.

Lincolnshire have just done a conversion course (first one I think) for RDS to WDS, it was 7 weeks but was more for the technical side i.e. water, line rescue as the WDS are classed as a technical resource.

I do agree some RDS think it's an easy way in but then there are some that come from busier RDS stations and know the job inside out and attend a broader range of calls so their skills are hot in certain areas compared to say some WDS stations.

It certainly does't doesn't pay to do a full course, they could have them on the run quicker without this I know some brigades are struggling filling the gaps due to retirement.

[Br9mp81]

Said this before i know one lad years back, been RDS years, been to Wray park for the Army Fire Brigade (as was), got back from days opened another not made  it letter from his FRS, pager goes and he spends the night on standby at the local WT station, good enough when it suited, he gave his pager in the next drill night.

[TandA]

3 hours ago, Luminoki said:

Sadly ( tin hat at the ready ) i think SOME RDS are their own worst enemy when it comes to applying for WT, ive met some with an enormous sense of self entitlement who think they should walk into a WT job, approaching a recruitment process with an “it’ll be alright on the night” attitude. Those are the ones who have been offered interview help and turned it down, ive heard the “a firefighter is a firefighter is a firefighter argument” but when its met with the brutally honest “if you didnt get in, you didnt meet the standard” reply, the conversation quickly becomes rather sour

No argument there from me.  In 19 years as RDS,  I have known a number of RDS colleagues who thought the service owed them a WT job.  They seem to, almost as one, put little thought, preparation and effort into their application, preferring to use the “I am RDS so I am automatically best” approach, usually followed by a loud blaming of a rigged system / diversity initiatives / anti RDS sentiment / anyone but themselves for their failure.  Seen some evidence lately that this “entitled” attitude is still alive and well.  Refusal to take feedback, refusal to accept that any member of the public could possibly be better than them, failure to prepare properly instead submitting rushed, badly thought out applications.

I have also known some very switched on colleagues who would have no problem at all holding down a WT position.  They showed all the right attitude and attributes and in 90% of cases, they got a WT position after a couple of applications.  They used any failures as a learning experience, took the feedback on the chin and used it to improve their weaker areas.  They went into the next process better prepared and stronger, and soon they had that WT position they wanted.

[Luminoki]

Not wanting to derail this thread, lets keep it on topic ( after this tale )

Anyshires FRS decided to close down some RDS units and offer the FFs WT jobs provided they did some leg work. Gave them coaching sessions on the entrance tests. And even pretty much ( allegedly ) handed over the interview questions with the inducement “look do the studying, hit the bars, show you have some nous outside the service and you WILL get a job” Any guesses? Yep some didnt even bother, assuming that just attending the interview was a mere formality. They didnt half moan when they didnt get the jobs, even though the vacancies were at stations that would require them to relocate anyway!

And for those not in the RDS know there is a facebook account dedicated to the life of “a bunny” Inbetween pictures of alerters with batteries out theres usually a thread regarding this very topic and some of the bitter anti-WT sentiments are shocking to a point that keyboard warriors must be getting carpel tunnel syndrome the amount of arguing that goes on, it puts the whole “whose busiest in LFB” threads on the old forum to shame ?

However back on topic

 I know that recruitment processes are often thought up by HR who may have little experience of utilising firefighter skills and have no-one to advise them on how to deal with isolated cases. Or as a certain East End white hat on here might say, its not how it used to be. Local agreements can be a godsend ( i know because my RDS cover was one of them ) but can cause departments to clash heads, especially when Fairness and Equality comes into it.

One story goes that a very capable RDS WC and his CC were both sucessfull in getting a job WT with another service. They went through the whole process and were about to be put on a recruits course when a chat resulted in a senior bod at Anyshire FRS saying “they dont need a course, just stick them on station” they landed on station and as expected it was a walk in the park for them. Now some may baulk at this but its saved that service money on a course place, filled two gaps on station,  it also didnt deprive their RDS unit of OiCs as their cover would greatly improve, their training records were scrutinised and they had a couple of days assesments which they passed with ease ( not surprising seeing as they were trainers ) . . .

Three months later they were told they were going on the 3 month course anyway

On the flipside, in 2007ish West Mids opened up recruitment for competant RDS firefighters to transfer in ( i believe it was to fill vacancies on the lates ) Senior management decided to adopt a common sense approach and do maybe a couple of days assesments for these supposed capable operators. Two days later it was agreed that the squad would need to do a full course ( about 13 weeks ) make of that what you will

Rant over, tannoys just come on saying its supper time

[OscarTango]

I think there's a certain attitude of "sh1t, we don't have a policy for this" in HR when something like the above happens. They know in practice they have the ops training and they can test for the right people skills through interview, but as retained - wt transfers happen so sporadically, some flapping goes on and they push people through a recruits course anyway. (Though id guess that happens more with people who are RDS in one brigade becoming WT in another)

And OMG that facebook page. Never was there a more wretched bucket of whinge and conspiracy theorizing.

[CaptainFlack]

What's the Facebook page ???

Also - does anyone know if Mr. Shout is still RDS ???

[HoldFast]

As someone who transferred from retained to wholetime, I am predictably of the opinion that it was the right way to go about it. I would have been more than happy to go in from scratch (after 7 years RDS) and do a recruits course because I would have done anything to get the career I’ve wanted for years and I did not feel I was owed anything. I also liked the idea of doing a course because I enjoy the camaraderie and don’t think there is such a thing as too much training. I spent years applying with rejection after rejection. I learned from my mistakes and fine tuned my approach until I got the job. 

At the time I was transitioning from one to the other, another lad I worked with had just put his first application in for wholetime and failed at interview. He decided not to try again as he didn’t think he should have to go to all that bother again. Some just don’t seem to realise that being RDS doesn’t mean you can walk straight into WDS. They can’t give a job to everyone that applies can they!

I’m quite happy to leave that sort behind and let them keep wondering why they haven’t been handed a job.

I have also encountered the predictable reaction from some wholetime firefighters that I can’t possibly be on their level in terms of experience. You’d think 7 years of attending incidents would count for something wouldn’t you? The irony of it is I actually attended more incidents when I was retained than I do now. 

I did a one week conversion course when moving over. As it was to a different brigade the main thing for me was getting used to different equipment and different procedures.

[TandA]

Ok, getting back on topic, and to answer the original question, my belief is that there should be a mixture of the two approaches.  Diversity and equality requires that a service has some recruitment open to the general public as not every suitable candidate can live / work in an RDS area so they have to run a full process.  

That said, the fire service must be about the only organisation in the UK who, having recruited a suitable applicant doing an equivalent role on a different duty system makes them undertake the whole process and all the basic training again rather than accepting they have already proved they have the necessary maths, English and practical skills etc by doing the job.  Why not save the cost of putting them through that part of the process and if they get offered a job then do a skills gap analysis and cover any gaps identified.  To me, it is just a waste of public money.

I presume the Facebook page in question is “Retained Banter” .  A search of Facebook groups will find it, but you do have to join before you can see the content.  It is 95% banal crap with the very occasional useful /interesting thread.

[Luminoki]

42 minutes ago, CaptainFlack said:

What's the Facebook page ???

Also - does anyone know if Mr. Shout is still RDS ???

Its called Retained Banter.

Before the recruitment for H&W, we had a senior officer come down to talk to the unit and the RDS-WT arguement was put to him. To be fair to him he did have the guts to say that there are probably better people out there and they needed to find them. But concluded that it should be adapted for RDS. Quid pro quo it was later decided that RDS would go straight to interview provided they could pass the dreaded Apollo tests. A sensible approach but even when a slightly smoother ride was offered, some werent happy about having to undertake tests they believed they should bypass. Luckily the service has now got 6 competant rds transfers, some of whom have been allowed to take their rank and skills with them, also saving the service money. Whilst the processes have differed slightly, from looking at them the service has made it as level a playing field as possible and cost effective. This i think is a positive step for RDS in the future seeing as a fair few other services are adopting it and should be a driving force for those people to up their game 

[Paul LFB]

With reference to the above could a retained CM be allowed go for a Wholetime CM position within the same brigade

[Luminoki]

Not than im aware of, utilising of skill sets i assume is an afterthought. H&W havent done anything like this for 10 years, like OT says its new territory for alot of services looking to save money

[TandA]

In theory at least (it’s a new process), a competent RDS rank holder here can apply for WT via our Talent Pool process and promotion.  As an RDS WM I could stick myself in for the current SM round and if I passed and got a place in the pool then I could apply for WT positions.  What is not so easy is lateral transfer, in fact I only remember it happening once here, to fill some positions on an RDS station where one pump went day crewed but as the processes are evolving all the time it could happen again.

[HoldFast]

I think it depends on the route previously taken to get into RDS. If the initial ability tests they have sat are the same (why the  hell shouldn’t they be?) then it makes sense for competent RDS firefighters to bypass the initial selection tests and go straight to interview IMO. A fire engine is a fire engine and the standards required in order to ride one should be exactly the same across the board, despite the obvious differences in application processes throughout the country, again absolutely ridiculous given it’s the same industry. 

With this in mind if you can crew one engine why not another? The fires burn just as hot no matter who is responding. 

However even if RDS did go straight to interview, some would obviously be unsuccessful in the competition and must suck it up and try again.

[Lee88]

Interesting reading this thread I have been trying to get WT with a few different counties the last one being Lincoln. I have failed at the maths and English every time but every time I’ve done a ‘situational’ test I’ve got around 85-90%. I got In Touch with Lincoln and asked if there’s any advice apart from the obvious tutoring which I was going to do anyway and they said I can do a practice test on they’re website under the RDS recruitment header. Took the test and pissed it in the time allotted and got 100%! But apparently I can’t pass the numerous WT exams....

[PuddleSplasher]

IMHO RDS do not go through the same process as Whole time firefighters.

Given a little slack, ie Armed Forces.. T.A.  neither do they go through that same due process as the Armed Forces yet our Territorials fill almost 60% of the UK Forces.

We need volunteers that are willing and able to fulfill the duties of a Fire Fighter. Many apply and some may fail but some fail that can be trained, "In post" afterall if it is OK for "Senior Officers" then why not firefighters?

Better a volunteer than a pressed man and believe me there are many a Retained man/woman out there that can outdo a Wholetime Fireman.

[HoldFast]

On 25/11/2018 at 19:31, Lee88 said:

Interesting reading this thread I have been trying to get WT with a few different counties the last one being Lincoln. I have failed at the maths and English every time but every time I’ve done a ‘situational’ test I’ve got around 85-90%. I got In Touch with Lincoln and asked if there’s any advice apart from the obvious tutoring which I was going to do anyway and they said I can do a practice test on they’re website under the RDS recruitment header. Took the test and pissed it in the time allotted and got 100%! But apparently I can’t pass the numerous WT exams....

Forgive me for stating the obvious but sounds like you just need to brush up on your maths & English etc. A few months of immersing yourself in it will probably do the trick.

[Lee88]

Yes bud that’s the ticket and I did have some private tutoring for the last round and was doing absolutely fine having no problems my problem came about when doing the psychometric tests there was quite a few where it could have quite easily have been 2 answers. Hopefully I’ll get lucky one day 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Carl
Quote removed as its a direct quote of the post above. Please see FAQ

[HoldFast]

@Lee88 if I were you I’d subscribe to the forum mate. Lots of helpful information in the recruitment section. That ticket is well worth the 12 quid a year.

[Lee88]

Thanks for the advice bud 

[Lummox]

In my opinion I feel that not completing the whole time training leaves a huge knowledge gap. Yes rds have ticked the ‘boxes’ but they haven’t done combined drills repeatedly for weeks honing those base skills, repeated assessments and more importantly developed as a team over the duration of a course. The skills we fall back on when tired, or stressed.

There are many fantastic rds firefighters, but there is also complete dross who a lot of have managed to sidestep their way into whole time positions due to short term contracts and now we’re stuck with some huge mistakes. Nothing boils my wotsit more than the swagger of a new rds to whole time recruit still wet behind the ears acting billy big bollocks because someone has said they are already ‘qualified’. 

In balance there are some superb rds firefighters who are for some reason failing the whole time application, guys I would happily serve with in the worst of times.

Having said all that the whole time recruitment have let some absolute howlers through as well, and we’re stuck with them too! 

all my opinion of course, I’m still learning and re- learning as well as aiming to improve, after 18 years I still believe there is so much more to learn.

[Copey25]

Talking from personal experience after going from RDS to WDS after 9 years service, I for one am glad that I had to jump the hoops and attend training school. 

Despite already being RDS in the brigade I was applying  for WT, I still had to apply with joe public and get through all of the same assessments as everyone else. 

Being competent in my RDS role meant that I was placed on a watch for 6 months prior to training school (same position as the guys @Luminoki described above) and it was there I truly realised the difference between the two duty systems. 

I will never knock RDS or forget my roots, but there is a massive learning curve despite already being a competent firefighter. 

I feel incredibly thankful and proud that I experienced training school in its entirety and I recommend that everyone’s sees the whole process has a learning experience rather than it being a waste of time because ‘a firefighters a firefighter’. 

Before getting in WT I would’ve loved to have gotten a sideways transfer, now I’m so glad I didn’t. 

Stay humble ✌️