Guidelines. Should they be consigned to history?

[Cashybai]

HAHA Dyson, as always horse has bolted! Naah, you can keep the string mate, it'll do for beans....

Greg, my point exactly, I've always wondered why its taken so long to come up with a modern replacement, ffs we've got telemetry on the ba sets, live feed of consumption rates & time to whistle, maybe because guidelines get used so infrequently that they are bottom of the priority list. Your marine team keeping them just highlights their need to stay, for certain specific incidents, exactly as the tech bulletin description. I've never fathomed why hose reel or main hose hasn't been routinely marked in some way, I mean follow it back and you'll bump into the pump operator eventually. Percy, I'm sorry, I've gotta disagree wholeheartedly, a correctly laid guideline is a perfectly safe aid to crews, in some cases indispensable to a successful incident conclusion. The '60m of death' and 'killer string' monikers have always infuriated me somewhat, in that more firefighters have died where they've not been laid, than have died where they have. On the whole basis of the argument that they've killed firefighters so we should get rid of them, one could equally argue that we should immediately stop internal firefighting and the use of BA, since many more firefighters have died in those circumstances. Gillender street was an incorrectly laid guideline, branch laid behind crews without them being told, innapropriate deployment of same, Leo's, should a guideline have been laid in those circumstances? Was it necessarily a complicated layout in the first place? Look, I 110% agree the guideline needs bringing into the 21st century, but its retention is more than justified in some form until a viable alternative is introduced.

[BaldyGreg]

Its strange because I was discussing exactly this the other day, as with everything we carry on appliances they all have their uses, the Wm I was speaking to recalled an incident where guidelines were laid in a tunnel to find some people that had gone missing, not really what they were intended for, but it worked, this is what as Fire fighters we do, take our equipment and adapt it to the use we need, I dare say we could argue that steel shod levers still have a place !!!!!

Personally I never had a problem with them, I'm all for a modern version.

[Halligan]

12 hours ago, Cashybai said:

I've never fathomed why hose reel or main hose hasn't been routinely marked in some way, I mean follow it back and you'll bump into the pump operator eventually. 

Our Rosenbauer Pumps hose reel tubing is marked with arrows pointing back to the pump, (though it has started to wear off after a few years)

[Becile]

Ditto our hose reels have had this marking for the past 5 years, and yes as you state with normal wear it soon dissapears - premier hose reel which most brigades have is routinely marked with directional arrows, ( not sure if brigade engineers need to request it though)although in a job where the complexity or depth of the job that has warranted the use of guidelines, the hosereel may not be the most appropriate choice of water delivery, (or if I'm correct those lfb boys only go in with 45 now anyway ?)

[Cashybai]

You're right Becile, but with the high flow 22mm HR watch this space. I don't see why it can't go on 45 & 70 either tbh....

[Br9mp81]

Any chance of some more info on flow rates etc or a link to the manufacture. At the moment we're looking at new appliances but the Client is looking at "NFPA" booster lines which are to say the least hard work

[Becile]

2 hours ago, Cashybai said:

You're right Becile, but with the high flow 22mm HR watch this space. I don't see why it can't go on 45 & 70 either tbh....

I so wish we had kept our 31mm CAFS hosereel on as we had it engineered to take hp water...our workshops manager had other plans though ? Agreed no reason the 45 and 64mm could have done sort of directional texture embedded into the sleeving.

[OscarTango]

We have the 22mm on our new pumps in Kent, they put out around 200lpm vs the usual 120lpm. It certainly "feels" heftier and makes much shorter work of car fires. The whole "Big fire= Big Water" theme is on trend here at the moment (rightly so) and with the limited training time we retained get "hosereel for everything" reflex sets in easily. Having the extra flow rate on your chosen weapon can only be a good thing.

Back on topic, directional arrows on the tubing is great idea, amazed it isn't everywhere!

Br9mp81, Is that High Wycombe you were talking about? I was aware they had built in guidelines but wouldn't surprise me at all if they had been removed.

Edited April 22, 2017 by OscarTango

[Br9mp81]

Its 26 years since I last went to HW, I know the RAF lads had set the lines out as discreetly as possible but to no avail they then looked at feeder cables for radio comms,

[Dyson]

So, today this appeared on my computer, its on a Dyson official site.

I think it says everything about why this nonsense needs to stop, and they need to go. 

Its not like this a unique event, every serving firefighter has seen or been a part of this ^

Edit - may be easier to view through this link 

[Cashybai]

Hmmm...all that links to is the BA shuffle?

[Dyson]

Cashy, look at what they are actually doing, objectively....

Thinking about the fireground environment, how is that activity preparing those firefighters for operations in this century ?

Its not about that station, cos we all do or have done it, what are they carrying with them? how effective is their self protection during movement? i could go on mate...

How many hours are we spending nationally, doing this nonsense? 

[Cashybai]

Ok.... Right, being objective Dyson, as a BAI that was horrendous. That video should be used in training to show how not to do it, TBH WMFS & the Guvnor concerned should hide their heads in shame..Just off the top of my head, no stamping/floor check, front sweep rubbish, out in the middle of nowhere/off the wall, No2 holding on by the cylinder(?!?) not clipped by personal line, is that even a guideline? I agree, that's no preparation as it's being done s41t. If that was trainees in week 1 of BA I'd understand, but my Christ, a Wm???

Ok, back to real world. You could argue with widespread use of TIC's that safe movement and guidelines are obsolete. That you'll see cables through the tic, that you'll see holes in the floor through the tic, that you'll see walls, doorways, layouts etc. Fine and dandy, but, and it's a big but, that tic fails/screen gets smeared in muck/gets dropped or broken, where do you fall back on? A Tic in any case can't tell you the integrity of a floor, theres a dozen places within a five minute walk of our station I could take you to , give you a tic, send you in in darkness and put you under heat related stress and I'll guarantee you'd get lost. I'd put a weeks wages on it that purely with a TIC you'd get lost. And that's the whole point. There are premises out there that you NEED a means to assist your landmarking to get you back to the outside. Christ, there's places that are confusing enough in daytime, with the lights on, not even in a fire situation. In the dark, semi filled with smoke? I wholeheartedly agree, the physical piece of string in a bag needs updating, percy's illuminated string is perfect in my mind, but ditch it completely? No way.

[Dyson]

Yes way yes way !!

BTW im not suggesting we ditch the art of safe navigation using all the skills that have been passed onto us, landmarking, self protection etc and the use of modern techs like TIC.

But....those buildings you talk about, i guarantee you, that you and your watch can safely conclude an incident there.......without the guideline.

Its a state of mind, we need to think differently.

edit - and actually while we are at it, aside form guidelines specifically..... the whole BA shuffle self protection system is all wrong, why on earth ore we continuously training our firefighters to progress through buildings upright with their heads at the point of least visibility/highest temps ? we teach them that during BA training, and then once every 2 years we put them in a shipping container and tell them to do the opposite.....but this is off topic 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Dyson
add on

[Br9mp81]

I've had dealings with a police team that were looking to use white cordon tape as a way marker for buildings much as cashy talks about,they have yet to take up our offer of guide lines and training and this was for daytime lights on use.

[Carefree]

7 hours ago, Dyson said:

Edit - and actually while we are at it, aside form guidelines specifically, the whole BA shuffle self protection system is all wrong, why on earth ore we continuously training our firefighters to progress through buildings upright with their heads at the point of least visibility/highest temps ? We teach them that during BA training, and then once every 2 years we put them in a shipping container and tell them to do the opposite, but this is off topic 

Off topic yes, but a fair point all the same.

[Cashybai]

10 hours ago, Dyson said:

The whole BA shuffle self protection system is all wrong, why on earth ore we continuously training our firefighters to progress through buildings upright with their heads at the point of least visibility/highest temps ? we teach them that during BA training, and then once every 2 years we put them in a shipping container and tell them to do the opposite.....but this is off topic 

We teach them that for the same reason that pulse spraying is not appropriate for every single fire we attend. Its a method of moving safely when you are able to/its appropriate to move standing. I also know we teach sweep and thump ( or at least we used to up to very recently) for whilst on hands and knees, and for stairs. It's a tool to be used when it's necessary. I'd one hundred percent advocate the BA shuffle , if only for the reason that you cannot seriously tell me that crews in BA proceed into every incident on their bellies? but agreed, that's off topic...

Sorry Dyson, we'll agree to disagree. Yes, in the majority of cases, crews can conclude incidents without the use of guidelines, exactly in the same way that crews can conclude the majority of all incidents without BA for that matter. I know for a fact that there have been just as many incidents (which have mostly gone under the radar) where due to the stigma attached guidelines haven't been deployed, or have not even been considered, and crews have got lost, but for the grace of god they've not found a place on the memorial. Sorry Dyson, Percy's glowing line is for me the answer to many issues we've had with guidelines, so long as direction markers are included. I spent long enough watching both trainees and experienced firefighters getting to various levels of disorientation due to heat stress, watching the effects it has on their ability to coherently apply the safe navigation methods, and knowing that a correctly laid guideline IS a lifesaver. On a purely pedantic note, more FF's have died in BA without guidelines deployed than with. How did we respond as a service as a whole? greater training and learn from the mistakes, not vilify the BA set and fight scared of using them.... 

[Dyson]

i respect your opinion mate, and i understand your point of view. As an ops bod at heart, but also as BAI, i do have strong views on these things as i understand you do, rightly  x

[Cashybai]

You know what Dyson, we're both on the same track here mate. I wholeheartedly agree the string is massively overdue an update, and Percy's glow string is just what's needed. I just feel until that replacement is issued, we need to keep the thing aboard, as its the best we've got for the role we need it for . Mate, tbh its discussions like this that move us forwards  x