Grenfell Tower

[Trevatanus]

Thanks Jamie, that's what I thought. So would the content of message give much information, as there seems to be a lot of interest in it?

[StephenKP]

There was an interesting 14 page article on the effects this will have on the construction industry in the architects journal, claims and where the buck stops and value engineering by contractors.  If people are interesting I will try and scan it and link it (with correct references)

[Jet]

Yes it would essentially give all the operationally important info. It would detail the building type and dimensions, extent of fire damage, casualties, equipment used, control measures and procedures implemented plus other relevant important information regarding the incident. They vary slightly between different types of incident so the above example would be for a fire incident. 

[Steve]

In light of more high rise building failures, LFB have this evening upped the PDA to Multiple calls for high rise to 8 pumps and an aerial and if cladding is involved 10 pumps and an aerial.

[Messyshaw]

Jesus! 

What's the rationale for this change Steve? I appreciate the latest gas supply news for some blocks in town, is it connected to that? Or is there a new high rise procedure that requires such a response?

Lastly, is the trigger 18m high? And is this just residential or commercial too?

[Becile]

I'm with Messy...wondering why 8 when you already upped it, does that mean that every building that is found in London (hospitals schools etc) will be increased ? As this could be considered the same for uncontrolled fire spread purposes ( not floors vertically, but given wind direction etc could apply ) and therefor justifiable by the same rationale.

[Messyshaw]

I have learned that the 8 pump attendance is for multiple calls and 10 pumps for the same where cladding is reported as Steve said. I am not sure whether this is from the caller or from a database. After all, all landlords who have sent test samples to the BRE should have inform their local fire service, so the LFB should have a list somewhere 

I also understand that this PDA is for residential buildings and not commercial. I am not sure where hospitals fall, as surely the risk is greater there than the average flat. I believe there a number of very tall hospitals with dubious cladding fitted in London, with one causing particular concern. Done worry moderators, I am not going to name it!

[Steve]

When a fire call comes in to LFB, with so many different types of building and high rise buildings running into the thousands, LFB control always ask what type of building it is (as I'm sure all controls do) and try to establish if it’s a high rise building (if they don't name it as xxx point or whatever) and what floor the fire is on. If it’s identified as a high rise building either by database or caller then it gets a high rise attendance and this is for all high rise building types.

Now, if there are multiple calls it will get 8 pumps. I'm on leave and haven't been party to that rationale, but pretty much every decent working high rise in recent times goes to 8 anyway as in any man’s book, to do the job properly at a well-established fire it’s a 6 pumper, as soon as you start getting the inevitable FSG calls (fire survival guidance) then it goes to an 8pf at least. We are in a new era now, with the four or five decent high rise jobs we've had since Grenfell going to 8 or 10 pumps apart from one which stayed at 6... 8 seems a reasonable starting point. Multiple calls tells you something, it’s almost certainly going to get lots of people in the block excited so politically and reputationally knowing what is most probably coming in the next 10 minutes, who would you not get them all on the road, especially as we have the motors to hand. I think it’s a sound decision and I back it fully. I see nothing written that limits this to residential high rise, so I imagine it relates to all as does the original high rise attendance.

For one of the many buildings identified with cladding (which have all been visited by FS and FS and Ops crews and added to the Operational risk database). Looking back at Grenfell I also fully support getting 10 on the road for that. Through no fault of our own we were caught with our pants down because of what that godforsaken place did.... you can't un-know what you know or un-see what lots of us have seen.... I'll take the 8 or 10 and to be honest I'll be in the car and on the road myself.

The IC has the job of making a quick assessment and either making it up or turning back the Calvary for the BBQ on the balcony or pan on stove on the 3rd floor of the block on the high street that everyone can see on Saturday afternoon.

In terms of applying the rationale elsewhere, I don't agree. As much as we have a broader risk base than anyone else, none of those have behaved unpredictably to such and extreme, nor have they swallowed up 80 plus people and damn near took more than a few of our own with them.

[Becile]

Steve, thanks for your response, I was in no way decrying the decision, buts it's an interesting point where you state, "we have the motors" for those brigades who dont have the motors - but still have similar risks (not in the numbers that you have)where an 8 or 10 pump attendance has serious impacts on fire cover.

Maybe this will help other services justify the halt of swathing frs cuts by central  & local authorities (I won't hold my breath)

[Steve]

Yes, I absolutely agree, I guess almost every FRS area has at least a handful of high rises.... some will no doubt be covered by RDS. But ultimately LFB is responsible for London and we've done what we've done based on what we have and shouldn't be embarrassed or concerned how it looks to others. Meaning if it leaves other FRS saying "we just can't match that" then it is what it is. Its a postcode lottery if you like, but LFB couldn't say "Well based on the risk, we feel we should send eight, but so as not to highlight the lack of cover in Anyshire, we won't".

We all know it will be down to other FRS' to carry out their own RA and respond with as much as they can muster within a reasonable time, or as in some cases I've read (not evidenced), have stuck their heads in the sand and pretend it isn't happening and continue to send just two. I don't think many FRS' will be able to muster those numbers in short time and a few of the outer high rises within LFB area (thinking of a couple of estates out where I live) will probably take 20 minutes to get 8 on scene. Especially if one or two of the local stations are already out.

I can think of a grass fire in 2006 where I made pumps 8 on a busy sunday afternoon in the same area, 7 & 8 came from Bow (now closed) and Homerton which is at least 25 minutes on the bell with no traffic issues. 5pm on a weekday evening you'd be looking at 40 minutes. So even in LFB's case, it looks good on paper and will work for the central and inner areas, but in some cases I'd predict if it was a proper job, they'd still be waiting, but at least they are on their way.

[Keith]

Well worth watching, a feature on Newsnight, The 21st Floor

[Messyshaw]

Such brave but harrowing accounts. Whilst there was overwhelming support and gratitude expressed for the LFB's outstanding actions, once again the stay put advice was questioned.

Why wouldn't it be? Those on the 21st floor who ignored the advice lived, and those who waited, perished

Of course, if the building had not have been clad in plastic, that standard advice would have worked as well as it has during previous fires at Grenfell. But there must be a better way than this. The hell those trapped went through while waiting, the way they died, and the anguish of Con Offs who were there on the phone listening to people's last seconds is unimaginable.

I do hope the inquiry consider this, and perhaps the LFB bring in new measures immediately. It seems to me that any 'Stay Put' advice must have a shelf life.  You surely can advice people 5 hours after time of call to stay? After a set time - and with consultation with the Incident manager - that advice should surely be abandoned in favour of 'attempt an evacuation'

I must be clear - my comments are not a criticism of the LFB or any member of it. The word unprecedented does not describe what they/you faced. 

[Dyson]

I've picked up a couple of working fires in tower blocks since the grenfell fire. The public, we found are in no way up for the stay put advice, and they are bailing in large numbers as soon as they can. Our FRS advice is to stay put, but as we are now encountering this understandable human behaviour, we are just gonna have to roll with it......

[Hannah]

Interesting article on the science... 

http://huffp.st/bGBXViS

[Keith]

It was also featured as part of Inside Out South, which is available on BBC iPlayer

[StephenKP]

CIAT (chartered institute of Architectural Technologists) held a large meeting of professionals to analyze the current state of regulations for highrise buildings as well as the regulations interpretations and produced a document from that meeting as a response.  This can be read here for those interested and this has been submitted to the Grenfell enquiry.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Carl
Link formatted correctly

[Steve]

#IAMMICHAELDOWDEN

[Carl]

Indeed Steve. I have posted on twitter in the hope it kicks off and is RT. 

I felt for Michael when I saw him on the stand. Very uncomfortable to watch, so god knows how he felt stood there. Hope he is getting the required help and support?

[HoldFast]

Retweeted Carl.

#IAmMichaelDowden

[Carl]

Good Stuff. If everyone who uses Twitter can Retweet it on there, I am sure it will have a great impact. We have nearly 9000 followers on Twitter and the account is a verified one, so please make use of it.

Not much point in posting it in here, as you have to join to see it. Im sure we all support Michael regardless.

[Matt]

Couldn't believe what I was seeing when it popped up on the news, heard a snippet on the radio earlier, really feel for him and hope he's getting support through this.  

Post retweeted on Twitter too.

[TandA]

Not a twitter user myself but it’s all over other social media platforms as well and I have tried to do my tiny bit to help there.  I just hope he is being looked after and given the support he needs.  There but for the luck of the draw goes any WM, or CM, in the country and NONE of us would have had adequate training to prepare us to face what he had to face.  

[Noddy]

Im outraged by what I saw.  I’m right behind the guy. 

[Cardiff_Fire]

Fully second all of the above. I have an anonymous Twitter account with a slack handful of followers and have tweeted also.

[Firestorm]

If we're not, we're not firefighters.

#IAMMICHAELDOWDEN

I've known Mike and Charlie Batterbee for a while and you'd struggle to find 2 more conscientious, hardworking officers.