Grenfell Tower

[Messyshaw]

I have managed to listen live to parts of the evidence given by the three LFB witnesses and it has been quite an experience. For those who weren't at Grenfell, we all think we know a little about that job - but to hear the stories of when on - through emotionally charged voices - is quite something and demonstrates you really had to be there. I doubt if the insulation suppliers, contractors and designers will be as open and honest as these guys as I expect a chorus of 'no comments' when they take the witness box.

Its also a reminded (as I we needed it) to be very very careful as to what you read in the media. Some news outlets have jumped all over what they see as the sexy stuff without applying a balanced approach . For example. 'Fire chief not trained in evacuating the building' said one headline with few details what that headline meant. But they seem to have missed that the firefighters in BA within the flat were also 'not trained' to be hung by their legs out of the kitchen window with a jet, attempting the deal with the cladding fire whilst a burning debris rained down on them. The guy holding his mate did so with one hand so he could radio his Guvnor outside and tell them what they were doing!!! 

Would I have done that? I will never know, but that was an amazingly brave and intuitive action that is beyond training and procedure. Social media has exploded with anger. An old farts FB group (LFB retirees) are almost ready to storm Parliament!!!.

I will not be wound up by the idiotic manner in which the Inquiry is being held or the pathetic reporting. Instead I will focus and remember those accounts of heroism than the bleating of lazy  tabloid journalists and unfair behaviour of overpaid lawyers 

[Rory-495]

Picking this up a lot later than the thread finished, but you called it Messy with the contractors honesty and openness.

Effectively saying that "you can have the truth or nothing at all, but we want to get off Scot free"

Grenfell Inquiry Thrown Into Confusion

Edited February 3, 2020 by Carl
Link formatted correctly

[Messyshaw]

I know I predicted some dishonesty and half truths, but who could have predicted a request for immunity to prosecution from these pathetic parasites? 

The LFB witnesses gave a bruising and open account of events with little regard the the ramifications. Dany Cotton effectively fell on her sword due to her openness. Why would that be I hear you ask? Every man and woman the LFB put up was wholly motivated by the need for change, the need to prevent this ever happening again - and sod the personal consequences of what I say.

Dont think that this hell had finished yet, especially for senior LFB managers. The Courts pursued David Duckenfield - the Police Officer in charge of crowd control at Hillsborough that dreadful day - for 30+ years until they 'got' him.

Now the Grenfell contractors and landlord have shown their motivation; - profit and greed. Ironically probably the same reasons 72 people died such a horrific death. 

I cannot see the Attorney General allowing these cowboys an easy escape route when they collectively blocked the escape route for so many that night. But who knows what sort of lobbying and bent goings on are happening behind the scenes?

Shame on them and I hope when this case comes to Court, the sentencing judge remembers this  cynical  attempt to evade justice and adds a few months on the the CEOs jail term

[Lumie]

@Messyshaw unfortunately their immunity request has been ‘backed’ by the court, but not accepted yet.

The reasoning their lawyer gave was the people’s right against self-incrimination. They can either get immunity and we learn everything, or they say “no comment” and we learn nothing. The only good thing that would come out of them getting immunity is the truth will hopefully come out, and then the blame will shift from the fire service to the companies.

Its bull**** but that’s the way the cookie is crumbling. Absolutely no justice for the victims, their families and all those tragically affected.

[TandA]

And their request has been granted by the Attorney General today.  I am really torn.  It is limited immunity - as I understand it, they can still be prosecuted but the oral statements they give at the Inquiry can’t be used as evidence against them.  If that means the Inquiry can get proper answers to how exactly the cladding was allowed to be fitted and who knew what then that has to be a good thing. Unfortunately after Phase 1, I have lost almost all confidence that Moore Blick wants to do anything but whitewash what happened and exonerate big business..

[Messyshaw]

Its interesting to note that rumours I heard from a reliable source suggested the former Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox was not keen to allow this np prosecution deal, but of course he was sacked & replaced by Suella Braverman just two weeks ago in Boris's cabinet reshuffle. A coincidence perhaps, or maybe the direct result of Boris surrounding himself with yes men/women?

Surely there's no political agenda here? It would be wrong to suggest the lobbyists bought in by multi-million insulation industry had any influence here..... wouldn't it?

[Firestorm]

It's going to be nothing other than a whitewash that will tarnish the good name of the LFB. Corporate greed and old school tie connections win again. People have the audacity to berate 3rd world nations for corruption and hold our vile country up as some paragon of virtue, good governance and democracy. We live in a shameless banana republic. This will be a cover up exposed in a generations time when those guilty will be dead or beyond the reach of justice. 

The LFB approached the inquiry with a level of openness and honesty that now looks like naivety, the outcome imho has been preordained, why else would you make the LFB go first and bare their souls, corporate and personal and then allow the real culprits immunity?

Those who skimped on the refurbishment to save money, those who signed off shoddy work, those who ignored advice and refused to answer the serious concerns raised and those who installed this death trap cladding will walk free. Politicians and their chums in business escape.

Like Hillsborough, this will be revisited in 3 decades time and the outcome will be a scandal of cover up and corruption with the bastards getting off scot free.

We live in foul and corrupt times. Justice will not be served.

We already have a scapegoat.

[Healdav]

I see that the architect!! has admitted that he didn't look up any regs about flammable claddings. He seems to have thought this was the job of some consultants.

What on earth does this bloke think he was responsible for (except getting paid,, of course).

[StephenKP]

I seriously face palmed when I read the article.  It will be interesting if the CDM regulations brought up as it is also the clients responsibility to make sure all parties are competent to carry out the work.

[Peter W]

When I read this article earlier it reminded me of the discussion in this thread.  Another wonderful example of incompetence in phase 2 of the inquiry.  Nothing to hide here…  just binning the evidence as you do.

Refurbishment notebooks 'binned'

[Messyshaw]

I wonder if she cleared her desk out before or after she was granted immunity from prosecution along with the rest of these cowards?

No wonder she was so damn cocky when giving evidence. Outbloodyragous😡

[Becile]

Sorry, any immunity should now be retracted.

[StephenKP]

WOW beggars belief,  Architects are required to keep project records for no less than 12 years after completion and are required to scan in all notes taken down for records, it's important to do as it can protect you as well. anything verbally agreed should always be followed up with an email.  I note in the construction news another development has had to be "Evacuated" till new cladding is installed only approx 1000 residents to be rehomed temporarily.

[Messyshaw]

The Met are now investigating. 

She deserves to have the book thrown at her..... and hard 

[BurtMacklin]

I think she has calculated that the destroying evidence book being thrown at her is preferable to the corporate man slaughter book. 

[Messyshaw]

And then she doesn't understand the wrath of those in the judicial system who get very upset if someone attempts to shortcut the system. 

Plus the arrogance of her evidence, feigning a naive stance when she almost certainly damn well knew what she was doing

[Kinmel]

Paul Hyett, an Architect expert witness started dissecting the design of the cladding system yesterday, complete with a scale model of a flat's new exterior cladding. He is giving evidence for 3 days here is yesterday's session, it's well worth watching....

 

[StephenKP]

I was very angry with the response from the studio E architect statements especially "I didn't think it would need a cavity barrier there"  and celetex...... well watchi that one and  learn about the test was with a magnesium board and then in their documentation use a picture without it and just the insulation....  It is also worth noting the time spent for architects as part of their course on technical stuff rather than pretty pictures where they expect alot of the technical bits to be tought in their year out in practice I have said many times they need to teach more technical detailing

[Keith]

As the year ends, this article doesn't read well for all those responsible. 😠

[Healdav]

On 03/02/2020 at 08:56, Messyshaw said:

The Courts pursued David Duckenfield - the Police Officer in charge of crowd control at Hillsborough that dreadful day - for 30+ years until they 'got' him.

To be fair, it was the relatives who were after the police and pushed the continual repeated enquiries and actions.

[Kinmel]

"Inside Housing" has published the sad history of the cladding saga

 

[Messyshaw]

@Kinmel Thank you for sharing this rather depressing but fascinating insight to the history of how Grenfell occurred. How much of this will the Grenfell Inquiry note? Probably very little.

The Inside Housing Article is also interesting for the stuff not included. The Inquiry has heard evidence (from witnesses) that insulation companies used the UK to sell materials they could not sell elsewhere as our testing and compliance regimes were (are) so weak here .

One company sent material for testing that was sandwiched in non combustible material - Naturally it passed. But the non combustible material was removed before the real product was marketed with the falsely achieved accreditation.

Don't forget this allegation was made by a young employee who thought it was odd, maybe bent, but everyone around him said it was OK so he went along with it. This implies it was common practice which is worrying.

But why Govt Ministers as far back as Heseltine were lacklustre is making changes isn't so clear. Some argue that the insulation industry, being bolstered by the rush to get us all living and working greener - is worth £billions in the years ahead so has considerable lobbying resources.

Some evidence in the Inquiry suggested a big insulation company had a direct line into Govt and could influence policy making including building reg changes

The deeper you dig, the smellier it gets 😡 

[Kinmel]

In Wales, sprinkler systems are now compulsory in all new build residential buildings and the next stage of retro-fitting sprinklers in high rise premises has just started.

They have now been installed in the Richard Heights block in Flint, north Wales and a recent chip pan fire showed how effective domestic sprinklers can be..

[Noddy]

Meanwhile over the border in England about a month ago, I turned out to a chip pan fire that killed the bloke asleep on the sofa. 

[BurtMacklin]

Can’t believe anyone uses chip pans when air fryers exist