Grenfell Tower

[Messyshaw]

Aspire, I have been hearing tales of some of these 'exploits' as you somewhat modestly refer them!!  

To be honest, in the past, I have known firefighters to received awards for actions that are IMHO no more than business as usual and it irritates me a little. But from what I am hearing from this job, there have been heroic actions on an unprecedented scale. I have heard of multiple BA crews searching and rescuing casualties from many floors above the fire with no firefighting media, hardened 'hairy-arsed' firefighters believing they would not make it out, but pressing on as "it's what we do isn't it?", Radio comms overloaded with traffic so effectively leaving crews isolated, and the difficulties establishing a bridgehead during such a rapidly escalating fire.

Even though I have been out of the job for many years, I am bizarrely very proud of what was achieved even though my only part in this job was a spectator passing by on my commute to work! 

 I am interested to know a little more about the time line of this job

Do you know if the fire was already developed externally when G27's crews arrived, or did they initially have a bread & butter fire within a flat that later broke out of the window?

 

[BurtMacklin]

Messy with the greatest respect to you, it might be a little early to discuss crews actions early in the incident due to the unprecedented media scrutiny and imminent inquiry and legal investigations surrounding this fire. Of course that's just my opinion, but I would hate for a bit of fire ground rumour repeated on here to end up on the front of the daily mail or sun, who as we all know never let the truth get in the way of a good story. 

[Luminoki]

One picture has stood out for me at the risks operational crews faced at this job ( and of course his reply to a tabloid 

[Messyshaw]

10 hours ago, BurtMacklin said:

Messy with the greatest respect to you, it might be a little early to discuss crews actions early in the incident due to the unprecedented media scrutiny and imminent inquiry and legal investigations surrounding this fire. Of course that's just my opinion, but I would hate for a bit of fire ground rumour repeated on here to end up on the front of the daily mail or sun, who as we all know never let the truth get in the way of a good story. 

Er, Burt - I understand your concerns fella, but my post was praising the actions of the crews who acted way beyond the call of duty and frankly deserve significant recognition.

The  busy radio traffic and issues with the bridgehead are mentioned to reflect the huge risk and difficulties that the crews faced and most definitely not as a criticisms of anyone or organisation

I understand the need for sensitivity - but I really do not think the Chair the public enquiry will be considering my post as evidence, do you??

As for the tabloid media, I am with Mick (see above thread). They can do one!

[Carefree]

I too was on duty that night/morning but we were not mobilised.  Our blue watch got sent yesterday at 13:30 and returned last night at 23:30.  Needless to say we hastily did B tests on the sets once they got back to station and we did a full inventory of the truck in case we got sent back on a relief.

It was/is a tragedy and if I'm honest all of us on the watch just wanted to go there to do our bit.  Respect to our colleagues who worked tirelessly in horrible circumstances.

[BurtMacklin]

Perhaps not the chair of the enquiry but certainly members of the press and others that would look for an inside line or "scoop" regardless of verification of the source, such as a public forum. I stand by the opinion I voiced, but it is just an opinion.

[StephenKP]

23 hours ago, Messyshaw said:

Just found this website from the company who supplied ACMs (aluminium composite panels) which formed the cladding for Grenfell Tower

ACMs are a form of thin sandwich panel and any FF who has been in the job for any time will be sent into a sweat by that term. 

To be clear, I am making no allegations or suggestions that this product was faulty, but there has been an interest in the cladding expressed today and I thought it was useful to share the details

http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk/page/rainscreen

Have look at their projects page which confirms the type of products used

Messy had a look at that site and it said that for rain screens used on that tower was an ACM Cassette rainscreen (aluminium composite material) linking from that to a manufacturer the sandwich panel is an aluminum layer with polyethylene core and an aluminium backing. This is fixed to a carrier system fixed to the wall. It was also an open jointed system i.e. theirs a gap to the full perimeter of the panel before the next panel.  Lots of questions could be asked i.e. was any fire stopping implemented behind the panels at certain centres do current standards require it to have this? There is also an A2 fire rated version of this was this used?. No doubt the system will be looked at in detail for answers to why fire spread so quickly up the facade, if there was no fire stopping between the panel and the original structure finish at certain points, would this have prevented it spreading up the facade as quick? As before until a thorough investigation and questions have been answered happen there is no blame that can be pointed at anyone till the facts are proven.

[Becile]

I too was there with our 42 metre ALP and crew throughout last night as all other crews were withdrawn due safety concerns, wow what a scene, nothing I have ever experienced before, a truly Stirling job by all concerned, with amazing dedication and proffessionalism at all ranks.

[Keith]

Did wonder Becile whose ALP that was as it appeared to have a greater reach than the ones shown in earlier footage from the incident.

Rolling news kept referring to a crane, but anyone in the job could see it was an ALP. Thought it might have been a commercial one from the construction sector, but discounted that as only the fire brigade have a need for water and ladders.

[Carefree]

The difference in reach was pretty significant.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Carefree

[Messyshaw]

BBC London News visited a block in Camden which has been clad by the same company

A resident showed the TV crew a deep window cill in his living room - perhaps 250/300mm deep. He said it wasn't there before they clad it

So it looks like the cladding and insulation runs up the existing wall, under the window and the top of it forms the cill. So fire spread vertically would impinge directly to the cill and effective straight into the flat. I assume (and it is an assumption) that there would be fire stopping to prevent this - maybe not?

[StephenKP]

Might be of interest to you messy this is the planning application that was submitted.

The design and access statement part 2 on page 13 has a rough section.  It also refers to zinc cladding, though going from zinc to aluminium would be a value engineering approach but again we don't have all the facts but the section shows what you just described with insulation finishing under the window cill.

[Becile]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

Did wonder Becile whose ALP that was as it appeared to have a greater reach than the ones shown in earlier footage from the incident.

Rolling news kept referring to a crane, but anyone in the job could see it was an ALP. Thought it might have been a commercial one from the construction sector, but discounted that as only the fire brigade have a need for water and ladders.

The thermal imaging cameras on the cage have proved invaluable as well.

[Dyson]

Id be interested to see this 42 m ALP

[Halligan]

Becile- I saw a pic of your ALP on this job and it looks like it was jacked up on the grass - out of interest do you have huge  jacking boards to allow it to operate off road? Ours is only ever used in solid ground to prevent slipping/sinking etc

9 hours ago, Becile said:

I too was there with our 42 metre ALP and crew throughout last night as all other crews were withdrawn due safety concerns, wow what a scene, nothing I have ever experienced before, a truly Stirling job by all concerned, with amazing dedication and proffessionalism at all ranks.

[Becile]

Yes it was pitched on the grass..the ground was reasonably solid, the plates are probably 18" I'd say. The alp needs all 4 wheels of the ground for stability.

Dyson pm me I can arrange that if you want...either in an official or unofficial capacity.

[RJGillies]

For a very similar incident in Australia take a look at this post event incident analysis.  It looks like a working sprinker and alarm system prevented what could have been the same result.. 

[Kinmel]

At some time, we have all sat in the back en-route to a shout and looked out for the incident.

I never saw anything like this out of a cab window, but I do know that my thoughts and words would have exactly matched their's.

 

[Steve]

As already stated, I was there on the job. Certainly like nothing I've seen before and I'm in that band of grumpy elders who are the most run out and used up of the current LFB. Nothing more to add than has already been said and there is nothing I actually want to say at this time, apart from thank you to all of those who were there wearing the LFB Uniform. We asked... you more than delivered... God Bless you all.

Steve

[Dyson]

Steve, Im sure i can speak with confidence on behalf of the rest of the British Fire Service when i say this - 

What you guys turned up to was immense, to have a tower block going top to bottom, with the exterior alight, breaking in on every floor was unprecedented. We look on with a mix of admiration and pride in what was done by the Red Watch in LFB. Im sure every rule in the book was broken, I'm sure acts of huge courage were displayed, and i know that you saved as much life as was possible to save. Impossible decisions would of been made, a hundred times, things have been seen that can never be unseen, haunting things, we all know this.

We are with you and we are here 

X

[OscarTango]

Can only echo what had been said above. I was in Gatwick north terminal when I learned about it Wednesday morning and saw the thing out of my aeroplane window. I still cant quite believe such a thing can still happen in this day and age.

The hugest props to you all and thanks for all your herculean efforts.

[Messyshaw]

One week on and I am still in shock.

Shocked from passing the building when it was well alight when I had no idea about the incident and shocked it could have happened in the UK

One week on I will be passing the blackened tomb again in 20 mins and it sends shivers down my spine every time

I went to the uks biggest fire safety exhibition yesterday and watched a panel discussion by various experts.

The industry is as one to ensure the momentum for change is not lost over time. Changes to building regs and how they are reviewed was top of the agenda 

Whilst the building industry rush to meet new  environmental and sustainably requirements with new products and systems, the part of the building regs has not been reviewed for 11 years so is lagging behind

Material testing standards are old, confusing and vary between countries and there is often no need for installers to be competent - as is the case for say gas engineers

Changes must happen and this time all of us must play our part to ensure the Govt of the day do not water down any findings of the public inquiry

[Bgjm21]

Been asked to go to this job as part of my current role in the Redcross, coming down from Glasgow and having expenses paid, but does anyone have any advice on where to stay and transport in and out? Haven't been to London since I was about 10 so any advice would be fantastic. Cheers

[Steve]

With immediate effect this afternoon, LFB have increased the PDA on high rise fires from 4 pumps to 5 pumps and an aerial..... It'll be like the old days for all those riding the aerials, which are much reduced in number from the days when they were on almost every PDA in central and innder London.

[Becile]

6 hours ago, BM96 said:

Been asked to go to this job as part of my current role in the Redcross, coming down from Glasgow and having expenses paid, but does anyone have any advice on where to stay and transport in and out? Haven't been to London since I was about 10 so any advice would be fantastic. Cheers

Latimer road is the nearest tube...really close, as for accommodation it Depends on the budget I suppose, Google probably yr best bet.