LFB FF Transfers

[Aspire]

Pre-arranged overtime

Command Unit

Assistant Divisional Officer (Station Commander in new money)

Group/(Borough) Commander

[JuanFran]

Thanks @Charlieand @Aspirefor taking the time to answer my question.

[Rory-495]

On 06/07/2020 at 16:21, Charlie_ said:

I’d say officers in LFB get more PAO than FFs generally, especially those with CU.

Had a meeting with our DO the other day about the cuts, his summary was nothing is off the cards and it’s looking like a reduction in ADO and GC numbers.

Recruitment at the moment is being slowed but not stopped apparently, they’re still making up for natural wastage 

We were discussing this today with regards to ADO and DO in LFB:

An ADO on a one appliance station will manage between 20-28 firefighters.

A Station Officer on a multiple station (think Paddington, Wembley etc) could manage 20+ Firefighters. 

In reality you could have single ADOs manage 2 stations in a borough  and only have the same number of personnel as a single ADO on a large station.

The question is to be asked why do we need the extra officers other than making sure we have them available for incident monitoring/fire safety/incident commanders/other roles etc.

And before I get told off for being mean to any station commanders, it's not something I'm advocating, it was just an idea put forward hypothetically by our own ADO who we would hate to lose!

[Becile]

I’m not in lfb , but it does sound slightly strange.I know every brigade is slightly different, for instance as a station commander (we actually call them assistant group commanders) I manage two stations with multiple specials, I manage the whole borough (hence the operational AGCs are known as borough commanders . There is is no uplift in pay, all of us have specialisms or leads (I do hazmat/dim lead and drone and nilo) so in effect I manage 40 + personnel, with 8 direct reports to me (watch commanders ) If I take the next rank (GC)I would manage 3 boroughs and 3 borough commanders .

I still get really confused with lfb, s rank structure, it just doesn’t seem to make sense to me, I’m sure it makes perfect  sense To those working it ,just seems like loads of officers.

[Charlie_]

It is a lot of officers, every station has an ADO, so that’s 103 already, then every borough has a DO which is 32 I believe. Then I’m not even sure on the numbers above them. 

[Dangly1]

There are some station commanders who look after more than one station, so the number will be slightly lower than your estimate @Charlie_

[Aspire]

As a Station Commander in LFB, before I was based at HQ, I had 2 stations, 56 firefighters across 2 sites with 8 direct reports just like Becile; its more common now. There are even a few that have 2 that aren’t one appliance, Lambeth and Clapham share a SC with 3 pumps and an aerial between them, all whole-time remember... @Becile How many of your are/are not retained and would you say this ease’s the workload?

Also, the population density of London and the melting pot of issues necessitates an unbelievable amount of partnership work. In the borough (5 stations) I was in, my 2 machines did almost 4000 a year between them as we battled with the following issues:

• 2nd most densely populated borough in UK
• 1 in 5 households house more than one family
• 43% residents were born outside the UK
• Highest rate of pensioner poverty in England
• Highest rate of child poverty in Great Britain

This is just a snapshot of how challenging it was for me as the borough lead for Safeguarding, ASB/Gangs and road safety.  The local authority were extremely needy and with London traffic, a short meeting 3 miles away could take 40mins travel each way. My stations were 1.2 miles apart and could take 20/25 mins on a bad day to travel between the two.

[Messyshaw]

2 hours ago, Aspire said:

This is just a snapshot of how challenging it was for me as the borough lead for Safeguarding, ASB/Gangs and road safety.  

This is exactly my point about the new wave of post cover austerity that will effect ALL public services (except MPs pay of course). Something will have to give

In a domestic setting, when money suddenly becomes tight (job loss or wife stopping to bring up kids for a while), you have to cut down on expenditure and just focus on eating, heating & keeping the roof on. Luxuries like beer, chocolate and obvious holidays suffer as you concentrate on core needs.

It seem to me that as the UKFRS are squeezed, they need to review their commitments and perhaps reduce them to core functions, i.e., duties they have to perform as required by legislation - and no more. That is what many public services are doing and what business have done for years.

So if its not a legal requirement, its binned or severely cut down. I am NOT saying that the excellent work in safeguarding, ASB and road safety isn't important, but these are primarily legal responsibilities and duties of local authorities, the Police & others and not the fire service. The LA are needy as they have no cash and rely on the fire service who are not yet under the same pressures. Other areas from junior fire setting, apprentices and community work cannot continue if appliances are cut to balance the books.

This would also allow Station Commanders to have more time to take on more stations and be an additional cost saving. I honestly have no idea how @Aspire and others manage to squeeze their workloads in to their week. I have regular liaison dealings with a Station Commander of one perhaps the busiest multi appliance in the LFB, who has huge number of community roles, a special project and is a NILO.  He loves it, but its hardly a responsible way for an employer to act giving so much pressure to one group of staff.

It is the reason that years ago (before all this additional work came about) that I didn't go for a Station Commanders role. It seemed to me a thankless task where management would push down changes and new practices to  Station Commanders to make sure they were enacted, whereas the watches under you would often be pushing back against the change leaving you in the middle with pressure from both sides and limited support - if any  from above.

[JuanFran]

Interesting post @Messyshaw. In my thoughts, this is the direction that I envisioned a post COVID-19 UK FRS could go. Time will tell. 

[Noddy]

On 06/07/2020 at 01:10, Messyshaw said:

Seriously? The amount of OT for FFs is making promotion less attractive?

That is seriously messed up 

Mate we have FF‘s earning more money than a WMB.

[TrainHardFightEasy]

There is also a shortage of those wanting to work as a CC/WC in training departments up & down the country too. The  NFCC jobs website regularly advertises such vacancies. 

[Br9mp81]

Could the training posts not be filled by retired CC/WC on a contract a bit like the forces "full time reserve service", i noticed last year a contractor wanted a mentor firefighter for training recruits, the job description was cut and paste WM training role on FFTR wages so any such job would need ok of unions