Guidelines During BA Initial Course.

[Geeta77]

2 hours ago, Jamiejet said:

You could easily have all firefighters trained in traversing a guideline and a familiarisation in how they are laid. No need to have obscuration as they won’t be used in fire conditions. Maybe just practice in a dark environment with use of lamps and other lighting. No need to carry water either. Massively simplify it and reduce the fear of actually using and training with them. 

But there is a need to carry water whilst either laying or following a guideline. We shouldn't ever be teaching FFs can enter a building without media in my opinion. As we all know from basic Fire Behavior training light or little 'smoke' doesn't mean safety

[BurtMacklin]

25 minutes ago, Geeta77 said:

We shouldn't ever be teaching FFs can enter a building without media in my opinion.

What’s your opinion on hose management crews? 

[Dyson]

@Cashybai here we go again  🤡

[Jet]

@Geeta77 I am suggesting that guidelines only be deployed in non fire situations nor in non-flammable atmospheres. Hence no need for water. 

1 hour ago, BurtMacklin said:

What’s your opinion on hose management crews? 

How else are you going to get a hose line deep into a building? Especially a jet as opposed to a HR. 

[Messyshaw]

4 hours ago, Jamiejet said:

 I've only put up a 135 once in anger yet it's a drill yard favourite. Why is that? My guess is because one day you might actually need it, and it needs to go up right.

It's not just pitching and climbing the ladder you need to practice, but also making it up and not letting it burn   (1 of two 135's that made the ultimate sacrifice at the Ocado job in Andover. You can see the heeler of No 2 to the bottom LH of this image)

[Becile]

When the evacuation whistle is blown Messy..you don't stop for the ladders -  As was the case in Ocado. Anyways there still a few rounds left 😉 sure we can find a use for it.

[Geeta77]

4 hours ago, BurtMacklin said:

What’s your opinion on hose management crews? 

Not something we teach here. Shirley Towers springs to mind. Can see some benefits definitely, just personally think there are too many dangers to being distant from the branch 

@Jamiejet I understand what you mean but if u are laying them to get a jet deep into a building, then take the jet with you?!

[Jet]

@Geeta77 I'm not sure you are getting what I mean. I am talking about deploying guidelines solely at an incident where there is not or ever was a fire to begin with i.e. extrication of casualties that are located in a large, complex structure where there are complications and difficulties reaching said casualty.

[Geeta77]

Ah ok sorry, so only none fire incidents. Well they can definitely be taken off a BA Initial Course then! 

Sorry mate, been a long day

[Jet]

No worries 😁

[Firefox1608]

I'll add my two cents as well - here we all (wholetime and retained) get taught laying guidelines and branch guidelines in our BA initial course. Only a couple of people on my station have ever used them in anger and that was a long time ago. From what I understand, the general consensus is now we have PPV, if we need to progress into a complex structure it's easier to make holes at either end, line up a load of fans and blow all smoke and fire gases out. There was something that came through the union about voting to support their position to not remove guidelines from service, however after a chat round the mess table we put our views forward that we didn't believe there was any use for them any longer. Time will tell how long they last!

Regarding 135s, we have quite a few low-rises in our patch so when we have an AFA or gain entry, a 135 up to an open window or balcony can be a big help. 

[TrainHardFightEasy]

Far too much time is spent doing BA drills around familiar territory with blanked out vision with no heat or smoke. 

It’s generally agreed that new recruits in particular need much more time going over branch techniques, ventilation & effective use of a TIC.

[Lummox]

In Hampshire everyone is still taught both laying and searching off guidelines. The question is raised and then goes away again. Honestly despite it being a regular part of our B.A competencies I would feel very uneasy committing and relying on the piece of knotted string as my ‘lifeline’ in a complex structure etc. Sharp edges, hot stuff, knots failing, line getting tangled round our feet.

The Biggest issue I find is the newer building interiors that have little to no tie offs that don’t allow an effective guideline to be laid.

There are other systems that may offer an alternative to guidelines.

In Hampshire we have transit lines  which are coloured lines on a drum to indicate the route to various things ie bridgeheads or scene of ops. We also have waysafe, which i feel is a very underused bit of kit.

[Sam77]

just picking up on this as i was going to post a new thread on searching techniques.  rather than do that, could i extend this thread please?

FWIW im of the opinion they should never be used in a fire situation, but can be very useful in allowing crews to get to a scene of operations in a complex layout.

anyway, enough of that 🙂  i recently took a drill session for one of my on-call stations (they dont lay, only search) and as is often the case, it went to ratsh1t.  so..... i thought we'd revisit them, but id show some videos of effective searching techniques prior.  however, i cant find any.  youtube doesnt seem to throw any up, so does anyone know where i could lay my eyes on anything thatll help?

if not, can any of you give any tips on how you keep from being tangled up whilst searching, especially off the 6m line?  also how to stop from going off at an angle instead of 90 degrees?

FWIW if im no1, i always try and keep the personal line tight to the guideline, no matter how close i am to it, gathering in and paying out but keeping it tight.  i saw many cases of wearers just letting it drag on the floor, walk over it, get tangled round legs, cylinders etc....

the search technique taught in training school now also differs from how i was taught back in the day, which was basically always facing in direction of travel but moving out sideways to 6m, 2 paces forwards, back in.  now it seems to be you face 90 degrees from guidline when moving out, reach 6m, step back, swing no2 round, back in, it seems a right faff (to me anyway).

id be interested in how you all search, and tips on not getting tangled......you may have some good ideas that i havent thought of that i can pass on.....

thanks

[TrainHardFightEasy]

There is a big green bin in the yard of most fire stations please put the guideline bags in there!