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West Mids "Positive Discrimination"


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No one is trying to fall out with anyone Lee I’m certainly not. You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but as far as debating goes you didn’t even really answer my question.

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I agree nobody is falling out here but assertions need to be based on evidence and the press, along with emails from mates that you concede may or may not be true hardly constitutes evidence.  

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As someone who has just been through the WMFS selection process,

I was on a selection day with around 15 others who were mostly White British Males (not all but mostly).

i believe the only thing which would have stopped people progressing would have been a failure to prepare, if your prepared to put the effort in regardless of age,race,gender etc you can get through as simple as that.

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It’s not West Mids but when Essex recruited last year I had a number of people, including one of my own RDS crew, tell me that it had been pointless them applying as it was clear we were not recruiting white males due to the campaign to encourage applications from under-represented groups.

The statistical results of that recruitment drive were released today.  We took on 49 WT recruits.  Of the 49, 6 were female, 0 were BAME, 43 were white males so over 85%.  One other thing I noticed, those who told me we wouldn’t recruit white males all did so after they were rejected.  The one on my station refused to consider it may have been because he put in a rushed application (started just 7 hours prior to the deadline) and imho clearly demonstrated by his behaviour that he didn’t meet the PQAs of a firefighter and that the service had been right to reject him.

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5 minutes ago, TandA said:

The statistical results of that recruitment drive were released today.  We took on 49 WT recruits.  Of the 49, 6 were female, 0 were BAME, 43 were white males so over 85%.  One other thing I noticed, those who told me we wouldn’t recruit white males all did so after they were rejected

Sadly this is the prevalent attitude of alot if RDS ffs who cannot get into WT

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I know of people who would pump iron in their overpriced gym to work on their fitness but wont shell out for perhaps maths tuition or the adult GCSE equivalent. They will be the ones who cant get past the online tests. And then say its because theyre white. After all, it doesnt matter if theres a rumoured bias when it comes to scoring if youre getting 100% in the tests

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1 hour ago, Luminoki said:

Sadly this is the prevalent attitude of alot if RDS ffs who cannot get into WT

I don’t think it’s just RDS, it is a common attitude amongst many.  Those on here who demonstrate the right attitude of using the rejection as a spur to improve themselves and their application for next time stand out a mile.  They almost always achieve their goal of a WT post, sometimes it takes a few attempts, but they make it.  Those who moan about perceived discrimination, continue to blame everyone but themselves for their failure and I know very few, if any, who have made it into the job.

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I can only really speak for RDS as i speak to more of them than the general public. That said there is a high level of anger and even vitriol on social media based on that article. Many a time ive sat with other ffs on training courses to be told “i wont get in but you’ll be fine” and “i’ll just say im gay” Ive even reprimanded a crew commander in front of a pump full of firefighters for saying that someone will get in based on their sexuality.

Funny thing is that whilst some of these firefighters have blasted a fire services alleged E&D policy, it hasnt stopped them taking temp WT contracts. Probably because there was no online tests for them to take

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If you are good enough for the job & prepare thoroughly for all the tests you will get in at some point if not 1st time. Some people always like to blame someone or something for their failures! 

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On 29/01/2019 at 07:17, OscarTango said:

I have zero issue with targeted action to attract minorities. Ultimately the fire service is an arm of the state. It's important that minorities have the opportunity to be included and take part in the running of a public service wether that be the fire service, DVLA, or the Home Office.

OT, I have zero issue with targeted action to attract minorities that are indigent to the UK, yes indeed this means UK citizens. (If unsuccesful then throw it open to include anyone and everyone) This includes ANYONE that can achieve a commonly decided standard across the board.

Sadly this is not OFTEN the case and this is without being with prejudice.

The former "Strathclyde" employed firefighters aka *I won't name her" at approx 5ft 2inches. A step was needed for that FF to reach the lockers. 13.5m ladder couldn't be carried especially of anyone above that same height as prescribed was on the other side.

I understand your sentiments truly I do so let me give another instance:

An area of affluence once that was full of tenement type properties, let us name and shame as Pollokshields. A small fire at the local chemist is discovered. Rear exit is onto a common close of aforesaid tenement.

Outside are 2 guys arguing and shouting at each other in a mode and manner that is certainly more horrible and heated that anyone of you guys are hoping to experience in a lifetime yet here it is still sticking with me 29 years later.

1st guy is shouting at a guy in a turban.

2nd guy is shouting at him and I quote " ya black paki bastard"

I was shocked by what I had just heard and as a young Fireman thought I had heard most insults having being raised in the Shipyards.  Oh little had I learned in my young years for as it transpired:

  • 1st guy was from Pakistan and it was his rubbish up the common close thathad been set on fire
  • 2nd guy was a Sikh from India and he was having a go at the Pakistani guy that lived above his shop.

After the incident the guy with the turban approaches me and I'm only 1 year in the job when he teaches me in his words and I quote so their is no ambiguity, "I hate those Paki....... (im sure you can think)

He proceeds to give me a short lecture on why India and Pakistan cannot live together in a normal society. That same normal society of Govermental offices whom are still trying to force it down our throats are still trying to do as the guy told me 31 years ago of which he believed could not be changed.

I don't want racism, in the workplace but what about bigotory, the old firm games and sectarianism, ageism as you see the old cleaner, the General Assistant with an IQ of a 15 year old, etc....

Deal with it at station level and it will not be an issue among your employees.

Deal with it and properly select your Firefighters at Recruitment level and we can all be forgiven for at last the proper people will be selected to offer ANY community a fair and unbiased service.

Hopefully the above made sense for I have worked alongside almost all the prescribed people that you can imagine and though the small person was a female that I described it still remains that a squad of females of Janets calibre will outdo you all.

Janet I know you retired early for medical reasons. I only hope that any other squads receive such a wonderful LFF as I did.

On 31/01/2019 at 15:58, Aspire said:

I speak as a Black Station Manager with 8yrs in, who has spent his whole career

I will get right to the point where others choose not to.

  • 8 years service says it all.
  • Fm, Lfm, Sub/O Stn/O and then ADO.
  • Oh wait, FF, LFF, WM A/B jump 2 ranks in your career and then Station Manager.

Your whole career as you describe is 8 years. 8 YEARS.

It is for this reason that I take offence at Officers trying to "gild the lily" with their personal achievements. At 8 years IMHO you should still be out there fighting the few fires that FFs ever see.

However, I do agree that the promotional selection is still there for all to use.

Please describe your firefighting experience?

On 06/02/2019 at 14:56, Lumie said:

@Lee88 if it’s true mate then all of the recruits would be BME and female, no? 

When I’m actuality, I’m currently sitting on my biscuit break in a training school surrounded by 12 white british males and 1 Brazilian female. The courses we’ve seen over the last 8 weeks have been mostly male, mostly white and mostly british. 

As others have said, I don’t think there’s any favouritism in the firefighter application process - the one with the best application form and the best at getting through each recruitment hurdle is he or she who gets the job.

Biscuits? Seriously? In a Training School. I wonder why that does not amaze me.

Spelling? Really! and what rank are you? British has a capital B.

In your instance the person that gets the job appears as the recruit that provides the "custard creams" Vanilla, Strawberry or Bourbon?

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On 18/07/2019 at 19:14, PuddleSplasher said:

It is for this reason that I take offence at Officers trying to "gild the lily" with their personal achievements. At 8 years IMHO you should still be out there fighting the few fires that FFs ever see.

Well lucky for me, your honest opinion, is just that! 🙄

I’m less interested about time and more interested about exposure, which is where experience is born from. I’ve seen 20yr firefighters that don't know how to use an entry control board, but don't worry, the time in will keep ‘em alive.

8yrs at stations like Biggin Hill who go on less than one shout a day, but lets praise the person who has done the 10yrs there and bless them with being allowed, in your opinion, to go for promotion!

The ‘time in’ thing is only as good as what you see during that time.

In 18mths at my last Central London station (as WM on London’s 3rd busiest appliance), I went on enough shouts in what would take 6yrs to achieve at Biggin Hill, based on the figures I ran. I am fortunate enough to have been based at all busy Central London stations that gave me a lot more exposure than I would have gained in the suburbs.

So yes, you would be glad to know, I have  spent many a night gaining my experience, rather than my time in for time in’s sake, doing and being exposed to a lot less.

So thanks for your attempt to belittle my 8yrs, but my experience in the time has taught me how to safely put out a fire and get everybody home to their loved ones.

P.S. We should celebrate everybody's achievements, i’m not sure why this would offend you.

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@Aspire You really did not need to justify your experience and your competence to anyone who questions it in such an aggressive manner on this site or elsewhere, but well done for doing so with so much calm and integrity.

@PuddleSplasher I, like you have some time in under my belt - indeed I am retired. But I am not sure what else we have in common. This site does allow disagreement and encourages debate and that is why it is so successful. But do you really need to resort to personal attacks? Really? 

You should be able to express your honest opinion without resorting to arrogantly attacking and questioning the integrity of others who use this site. You are clearly erudite and experienced enough to criticise @Lee88 in relation to his typo of not using a capital B in British, yet you use the word 'indigent' in the first line of your diatribe to OT. OK, you spelt it correctly, you just seem to have used the wrong word. It happens mate.

I note that most of your posts don't seem to be so confrontational, so assume you have been on the ale. But if not and using language you may understand, you really need to wind your neck in fella. There are other forums that do this confrontational willy waving stuff. This is not one of them.

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I think Messy sums it up really, thank you.

Can I suggest some members may wish to revisit the Guidelines of the forum, I wrote them for a reason, and all members agreed to abide by them when signing up for the forum. It may assist in understanding what and will not be tolerated. 

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On ‎18‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 19:14, PuddleSplasher said:
  • 8 years service says it all.
  • Fm, Lfm, Sub/O Stn/O and then ADO.
  • Oh wait, FF, LFF, WM A/B jump 2 ranks in your career and then Station Manager.

Your whole career as you describe is 8 years. 8 YEARS.

It is for this reason that I take offence at Officers trying to "gild the lily" with their personal achievements. At 8 years IMHO you should still be out there fighting the few fires that FFs ever see.

Regale us with your time in and massive experienzzzzzzz, oh no one cares. Retire gracefully and lay off the sauce, it makes you argumentative and a bit unpleasant.

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  • 1 month later...

I've worked with Firefighters who did thirty years wholetime and must have had their eyes and ears shut for that entire period. They knew nothing yet wanted my unquestionable respect just because they'd got more time in than me. My opinion is that if after thirty years you still cant put a 13.5m ladder up of tie a guideline off properly then you're lucky to still be in the job and certainly wont be held in any high regard by me. Flip the coin over and a lack of years in the job is absolutely no reason to write someone off. A year on a busy station can be worth ten on a quieter one.

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