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I just can't see how an employer can control the safety of staff on 24's.

Consider an injury (or worse) of a FF that occurs when s/he is working at height 23.5hrs into  a busy shift where that individual has not been able to rest.

Ok a 24hr shift without rest is not likely in most stations across the UK on a regular basis, but some stations are busy and all stations have busy periods such as weather related spate calls 

If I was a senior manager or FBU official, I wouldn't sign up to this shift system as it's turning the clock backwards in many ways 

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Rest periods are a valid concern, but we should looks at the wider context outside of British FRS tradition. 

In America some departments actively like lobby for a 24 shift system vs some other he more bizzare ones they have there. Much of the wider world do it, with much greater workloads of medical response as well.

In the vast majority of cases I would say it offers a more benign way of working regarding sleep patterns. We are quite good at managing crew welfare on watches in this country, no reason why we can't continue that under 24 72.

On the subject, this guy has quite an interesting blog http://www.jamesgeering.com/blog/. UK ex Pat, now a US firefighter. 

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Some American firefighters even work a 48 hour shift. Which I think may be stretching it a touch... but I would happily work 24s. They are very popular with everyone I know who does them. Humberside do 24 on, 24 off, 24 on 5 days off.

OT he runs an interesting podcast too. Some of his episodes are well worth a listen.

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I've heard of some that do 72 if need be that said some of the stations are well equipped with single room bunks and kitchen that would not look out of place on a cooking show, however ba procedures, baeco, and cut  out vents on rooftops leave a lot to be desired

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I mean this as no disresepct to our US colleagues and especially any who visit here, but to say 24hr shifts are OK as the US do them is not really a great argument. Many of the practices I have seen US firefighters engage in would not be acceptable here, many of which Br9mp81 has listed above.

However, I am intrigued that Holdfast has mentioned Humberside already work 24s as I would be surprised in any UK fire employer would - or is this one of those ridiculous Day Maning Plus systems??? (or whatever they are called)

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I must admit the thought of doing 24s really appealed to me at one point. However, I found night shifts getting harder over the past year or so. I have never been at a quiet station which I am proud of, but its taken its toll over the past 20+ years if I am honest. Since I was promoted to SM only a month ago, I am feeling the difference of being in my bed every night. 

For those looking in, remember we no longer have beds in GMFRS and in comparison, we are not a quiet service, even if its gone quieter than it was overall. Mind you in saying that the past 6 months has been horrendous. 

My point is, I would have loved 24s but I do accept the Health and Safety concerns as raised above. However, I do believe if the FBU allowed us to vote on it, it would be popular and we should be allowed to work it if it suits the majority. 

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I have to agree with staying away from certain US practices... don’t fancy standing on the roof of a burning building while cutting into it with a chainsaw but each to their own eh!

I am not a fan of the crazy day crewing shift system that allows you to be on duty for days at a time. This is not that no. It’s just a rework of the 2,2,4 pattern. Still 4 watches and still consists of working 48 hours in an 8 day period but with two 24 hour shifts instead of four 12 hour shifts or 9s and 15s etc.

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A quarter of travel, and travel time and perhaps  for some an end to people sofa surfing, kipping in vans and rising damp style bed sits, a lot of people travel a lot to do the job

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Whilst that is a great reason for the FBU 'rank & file' to vote for 24s - playing devil's advocate, as the employer - what has it got to do with me where you choose to live or what your sleeping arrangements are? My priority must be safety and having you tired on duty - or exhausted driving 100s of miles home after 24hrs work without rest - must be part of my equation.

Don't get me wrong, I would have grabbed 24s when I was operational, but there are huge amounts of risk for the employer with very little gain

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2 hours ago, Br9mp81 said:

A quarter of travel, and travel time and perhaps  for some an end to people sofa surfing, kipping in vans and rising damp style bed sits, a lot of people travel a lot to do the job

Im not aware of people doing this in GMFRS, perhaps its just limited to those areas were housing is so unaffordable? 

Perhaps this is a good reason why many services now postcode restrict their recruitment drives ?

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7 hours ago, Br9mp81 said:

A quarter of travel, and travel time and perhaps  for some an end to people sofa surfing, kipping in vans and rising damp style bed sits, a lot of people travel a lot to do the job

A lot of your post’s in this thread seem geared largely to those who live a distance away. I have never lived more than an hour from my station and shudder at the thought of having had to work 24 hour shifts. I live ‘down the road’ in comparison to the sofa surfers, so how does it benefit those like me? 

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8 hours ago, Br9mp81 said:

A quarter of travel, and travel time

It’s not a quarter it’s half. You are doing two shifts over an eight day period as opposed to four.

But still I agree that whether you travel five minutes or five hours it is still halving your journey time and costs. Plenty of other benefits in my eyes but what benefits me might not benefit others. Whatever is implemented it should benefit the majority. There are winners and losers with every change. 

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With H&Ws DCP the majority if those working it live within the services boundary, i can think of only one who commuted in for his shifts. The different shift patterns appeal to people for a variety of reasons, the travellers, those who want to get it all done in one/two goes for the week and people who have outside obligations/commitments to fill such as childcare. The 24s i think were trialled at two Beds stations and now all the WT stations habe them so its obviously worked for their workforce. I’d rather do a 24 than SR or 12/12

On the flipside it shouldnt be implemented at busy stations, the idea for DCP/24s is for stations that have low call numbers, Alcester is Warks is on around 200 and the busiest DCP in Lancs is on 672

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Bedfordshire FRS have been doing 24hr on 72hr off since 2012. Haven’t heard a bad word against them. Also Luton is the busiest station in the East of England and they seem to cope with 24’s with no bother. 

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I currently work our “peak demand” shift system which is a 7 day fortnight, no nights, 07:00-19:00.  5 days one week (Mon,Tue,Fri,Sat,Sun) and 2 days (Wed,Thu) the following week.

I really enjoy the shift pattern to be honest, but it’s not for everyone. 

We currently have 5 (!) different shift patterns in use over 8 stations.  There’s rumour going around that eventually they want the majority of WT stations to be Self Rostering. 

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I wont mention the station youre at but im pretty sure i know which one it is, as youre peak demand do you find its busy when youre available? Also are the rumours true about these PD pumps being sent out to RDS stations to put them on the run? I just find it odd that some stations offer no cover at night due to risk when there would be significant travel times from neighbouring stations if a job were to kick off

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It can be fairly busy mate, we tend to get used quite often and having a special helps to keep us ticking over. Still nothing on West Mids call out numbers though!

The rumours are definitely true. At least once a week the Ladder and crew will get sent to cover at an RDS station for the shift. Daily we’ll have to send a detachment to an RDS station to bolster their numbers and put them on the run.

Fortunately at my station the RDS do a great job of keeping the pump on the run over night and if for some reason we are off the run (extremely rare) then the next closest WT station is 5 miles away. 

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  • 5 months later...

@Copey25 @Luminoki this is Warks right?  how long have you had this shift system for? Has it always been there or did people have to migrate over to it? 

How do find it affects people who commute a distance to get in?

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Whilst im not at Warks i can confirm this is the pattern, currently used at Gaydon and Atherstone. I would think those commuting would find they were stopped from staying on station due to lone working regs. I think it was brought in sometime in 2016 when Gaydon was built but it was built to improve response times

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Unsubstantiated rumor that this pattern is being considered here for day crewing. From a home life point of view id consider working fixed days each fortnight and having a fixed every other weekend off easier to plan for than a rolling four long days and four off like West Mids lates.

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A mate of mine worked Cheshires nucleus crewing on a 3 on 3 off pattern. However the station was covered by retained at night. He was on standby occasionally for one of his rota days to cover sickness which was annoying for him as he travelled up from the midlands and would have to spend an extra day there waiting for the phone call ( although he said if it didnt come by 7:15 he was off the hook ) One downside was that you would never see the opposite watch so communication was limited to emails and the continuity book. And there was no staying on station

West mids lates attract a 7.5% increase in pay which is pensionable. Explains why alot of old sweats have gone onto the system close to retirement

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