What's become of CARPs?

[Jet]

Of the services that procured these appliances (combined aerial rescue pumps), how many still use them? And for those in services that did or still use them what were the negative issues that led to them being known as something similar to 'CARP'? I imagine the sheer size of them presented certain operation difficulties.

I came across a picture whilst flicking through one of those fire industry magazines that always seem to appear on station and found this Scania/Metz TL/pump thing which stood out for me given that it seems much smaller than the CARPs that were so heavily invested in (and also that it is a TL rather than a ALP/HP).

Further googling also brought me to the picture of the German Merc which I believe is the same setup by same company but is smaller still.

Could this instead be the future of pumps with aerials instead of the monstrosities we have currently? Or should the whole concept just be binned altogether?

Edit: something further I wanted to add was the issue we have now of alternate crewing aerials which obviously presents problems with the aerials availability if it's crew are on a pump shout. Could this be a solution to this? For the record I think permanently manned aerials are the gold standard, but this appears to be going by the wayside in a lot of brigades.

[Jet]

Another photo showing the pump bay of the Scania.

[Luminoki]

Off the top of my head, i think Warks and Northants have the tri axle one favoured by Scotland. And i think Cambs have the top heavy pump with a TL bolt on

In rds heavy services Jamie, the RDS can crew the aerial, i know this for certain in H&W but obviously it means there has to be an RDS unit at that station ( and that the members are trained in the kit ) Apart from permanently manned aerials i cant see an alternative to getting the truck out the doors as quick as you would a pump

Edited January 29, 2018 by Luminoki

[Matt]

There are currently 40 CARP appliances, 21 of those been in Scotland currently in the UK.

Cambridgeshire, Cleveland & Suffolk run Magirus TL standard axle.

East Sussex, Humberside, Mid & West Wales, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire (one of the former SYF ones) and Warwickshire run ALP with tri axle a mix of Bronto, Hilton and Vema.

West Yorkshire run Magirus TL with 50/50 mix of tri axle (added in after some issues they had I am told).

South Yorkshires remaining 2 are used for driver training, one sold into preservation in Scotland and 1 to Oxfordshire.

Avon have decommissioned theirs and converted one chassis to a welfare unit, Buckinghamshire sold their Quint overseas a few years ago, Humberside's is going to be replaced by a Bronto in next few years (RDS crew this one, no major issues but only runs as aerial).  West Yorkshire are replacing theirs with a dedicated aerial fleet (starting in next year or so), Cleveland bought theirs second hand from Kent and Hereford & Worcester.

Lancashire have just ordered another Stinger to go with the one they have with a view to ordering another one.  There are a some 25+ dedicated aerials on order for the UK and Northern Ireland at the moment, mainly TL a mix of 32m and 42m versions and a number of Brigades ordering 45m Brontos.  A selection of Mez from Rosenbauer, Magirus from Emergency One and Bronto from Angloco.

[Noddy]

Are you a spy Matt? 

[Carl]

For someone who is not in the Fire and Rescue Service he knows more things than those in it when it comes to the appliances. He told me we were getting new TL's well before the brigade told us. In fact I think he announced it before the brigade knew they had bought them. 

[Matt]

 

[Becile]

Maybe he could give us an update on 

A/ pensions

B/ mtfa

C/ Emr

?

[Steve]

18 hours ago, Matt said:

There are currently 40 CARP appliances, 21 of those been in Scotland currently in the UK.

Cambridgeshire, Cleveland & Suffolk run Magirus TL standard axle.

East Sussex, Humberside, Mid & West Wales, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire (one of the former SYF ones) and Warwickshire run ALP with tri axle a mix of Bronto, Hilton and Vema.

West Yorkshire run Magirus TL with 50/50 mix of tri axle (added in after some issues they had I am told).

South Yorkshires remaining 2 are used for driver training, one sold into preservation in Scotland and 1 to Oxfordshire.

Avon have decommissioned theirs and converted one chassis to a welfare unit, Buckinghamshire sold their Quint overseas a few years ago, Humberside's is going to be replaced by a Bronto in next few years (RDS crew this one, no major issues but only runs as aerial).  West Yorkshire are replacing theirs with a dedicated aerial fleet (starting in next year or so), Cleveland bought theirs second hand from Kent and Hereford & Worcester.

Lancashire have just ordered another Stinger to go with the one they have with a view to ordering another one.  There are a some 25+ dedicated aerials on order for the UK and Northern Ireland at the moment, mainly TL a mix of 32m and 42m versions and a number of Brigades ordering 45m Brontos.  A selection of Mez from Rosenbauer, Magirus from Emergency One and Bronto from Angloco.

WTF???

I know my way around this job, but in English please?

Anyway,

I have to take the opportunity to be glib about this and say in direct answer to the original question, (before we got the 'migraine inducing' answer), I thought most CRAPS ended up on their side on one provincial city's roundabout or another.

Seriously, the landscape could change in response to the Grenfell Tower Enquiry. LFB are already going out on a limb and having already pulled back from the "What's the point of Aerial's" school of thought over a decade ago, have crushed the last wisps of resistance from the alternate crewing gang, who IMO have lots of keyboard and committee room time but very little in terms of soot under their fingernails.

I'm not at liberty to discuss the contractual arrangements for the new fleet of LFB aerials but they are most likely to be a single manufacturer with an identical operating system, which will number around 15 with a likely 30/60 split between 30m AAT ladders and 55m(ish) straight ladders.

A number of UK Fire Services have baulked at what we are doing, especially in terms of the long overdue reintroduction of Aerials onto more PDA's. But frankly, we can't hold back so as not to embarrass others. Especially with what we are facing.

[Jet]

The alternate crewing issue is exactly why I've brought this topic up. If we had properly crewed aerials then I'd say what's the point in CARPs.

But where there is alternate crewing, why have a system where when one appliance receives a shout it knocks the other off the run when there are options to have just one appliance that could do both? In GMC we have five aerials, and it's not so far fetched to imagine a situation where all or most of those crews are simultaneously unavailable for whatever reason in which case the aerials available are then reduced to zero. It's also quite common for a station with an aerial to receive a fire call on their ground, mobilising all pumps and then having to later request an aerial, if needed, from quite far away even though there is one sat in a bay around the corner 

What I'd like to say is; just bring back permanently manned aerials! But we know that won't happen....

[Tiggs]

5 hours ago, Steve said:

 

I'm not at liberty to discuss the contractual arrangements for the new fleet of LFB aerials but they are most likely to be a single manufacturer with an identical operating system, which will number around 15 with a likely 30/60 split between 30m AAT ladders and 55m(ish) straight ladders.

Hi Steve

Will that be fifteen on the run or still eleven plus four Reserve? 

[Matt]

Scotland had a few issues putting them on their sides but rest have been ok.  Some are just using as a dedicated aerial where as others are running as both when they are on the run.  They do spend more time off than on it would seem.

West Yorkshire added a third axle to some of theirs and they have been more reliable than than standard setup, not sure on the details but some were like it from new, others had the extra added in. 

Of the CARPs out there some are TL (Magirus been the ladder) and others are ALP style (Vema, Bronto & Hilton).  Cleveland bought second hand when the Brigades in question called it a day, West Yorkshire are the only ones to buy recently but they have decided to go down the dedicated route again I was told a few months ago when I was chatting to a CARP station.

I would be very surprised if we see any new ones mainly down to everyone seems to be going big and 28m seems to highest on the ALP style not sure on the TL style but you are limited.  

[Steve]

18 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Hi Steve

Will that be fifteen on the run or still eleven plus four Reserve? 

I'd guess, although not confirmed it will stay as it is. However, distribution is being looked at again. Funny I was meant to be at a meeting about that today, but my old back has given out and I'm confined to my bath chair!!